Darksider's Realm

(this is not a place for lazy video game freaks. We Darksiders have been around doing our thing for decades before the mindless couch blobs latched onto the term Darksider)



DARKSIDER In the world of automotive hobbyists a Darksider is one who modifies and or customizes any and all sorts of vehicles. The Darksiders are in a class of their own simply because they endeavor to be different and do things that others would not attempt for a number of reasons mostly being related to a lack of ability and fear of non conformity.

This is a forum for people who think outside the box in everything they do. It doesn’t matter if you are modifying or building from scratch. It doesn’t matter what brand or brands of vehicles or components you are using. It doesn’t matter if you are working on a mini car or a bus.

We will not be asking you for donations or any kind of monetary payments. We will be asking for help in terms moderators and encouraging you to spread the word and add to our membership.



Join the forum, it's quick and easy

Darksider's Realm

(this is not a place for lazy video game freaks. We Darksiders have been around doing our thing for decades before the mindless couch blobs latched onto the term Darksider)



DARKSIDER In the world of automotive hobbyists a Darksider is one who modifies and or customizes any and all sorts of vehicles. The Darksiders are in a class of their own simply because they endeavor to be different and do things that others would not attempt for a number of reasons mostly being related to a lack of ability and fear of non conformity.

This is a forum for people who think outside the box in everything they do. It doesn’t matter if you are modifying or building from scratch. It doesn’t matter what brand or brands of vehicles or components you are using. It doesn’t matter if you are working on a mini car or a bus.

We will not be asking you for donations or any kind of monetary payments. We will be asking for help in terms moderators and encouraging you to spread the word and add to our membership.

Darksider's Realm

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Darksider's Realm

A message board & forum for automotive builders, fabricators and customizers who think outside the box.


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Darkside Dave
jerryj
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    37 Ford five window coupe

    jerryj
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    Post  jerryj Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:42 pm

    Well I guess I need to step up and start posting something about my project or I'm afraid Darkside Dave will show up on my doorstep. Lol

    I'm currently working on a old school hot rod with some cleverly disguised modern conveniences.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%201

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%202

    This was a whole car, everything but windows, interior, engine and transmission. I will start this page off with a before picture. Stripping all the stuff off the body wasn't that exciting. So here's where I will really kick off the project.

    So here's the plan: Turn this car into a radical 50's style hot rod that will turn heads where ever it goes. Make it as period correct as I can while having modern day drivability and dependability.

    37 Ford five window coupe Hemi_eng_2

    Say hello to my big friend! Is this radical enough? Here is my blown, fuel injected hemi. There is more here than meets the eye.

    37 Ford five window coupe Efi_intake_3

    Here is the underside of the intake. It is modified for direct port EFI. I will have more on the EFI system later.

    I have several things going on at once but I'll start off with the 5" chop.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%203

    There is a lot of measuring, marking and verification. I used masking tape to define the areas I intend to cut.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%204

    I had to change this area three times to make sure everything was going to line up. I tried to make sure that when the top came back together the rear window seal lip would line up in the corners.The "Z" shaped cut will help add strength to the areas I would be welding

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%205

    You can see here we have made the first set of cuts. It was important that I take several measurements between the "A" pillars to make sure the cut points lined up as close as possible.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%206

    This is the door jam. As you can see I staggered the cut line and kept it close to the corner for added strength and it will be easier to hide.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%207

    Only a couple more cuts to go and the top will be free. With the metal removed I think you can get a better idea on how it will go back together. Once the cuts are finished we will slide the top forward and match up the "A" pillars.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%208

    My son Corey and I are working on the final cuts. I'm marking the bodyline where the top will slide forward. I will take a section out at the bottom of the windows at the point where I have the marker.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%209

    The cutting was the fun and fast. Corey is helping me start on the slow and not so fun part.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%2010

    Well here it is all cut apart. The lower back section was slid back on to the trunk.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%2011

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%2012

    I guess I should apologize first. I was so excited to see it going back together so nicely I forgot to take pictures. To summarize, the top was moved down and forward to line up the "A" pillars. I did not have to cut or change the angle of the "A" pillars. The "B" pillar was split and when I moved the top forward the upper potion of the "B" pillar moved forward. I cut it just below the drip rail and moved it back and lined it up with the lower section. I moved the lower section cut below the rear window forward to line back up with the top which created about a 6" gap between the trunk and the rear window. I created a new panel to fill that gap.


    I have done quite a bit more on both the engine and body since these pictures were taken. After this weekend I should be ready to start leading all the seams. I'll try to get some updated pictures up in the next few days.




    Darkside Dave
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    Post  Darkside Dave Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:00 pm

    [b]
    Hi Jerry,
    Great project Man... I just made it into a STICKY as I do all the build threads. Can't wait to see more.

    Later Man...

    jerryj
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    Post  jerryj Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:31 pm

    Thanks Dave. I'm sorry it took me so long to get this posted. I should have some more to post next week but it's to darn hot to work out in that barn.
    tomget
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    Post  tomget Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:24 pm

    Hey Jerry Welcome

    Cool coupe. Really like those Fords. I've only chopped once--my 48International--and I never thought of staggering that back of roof cut. I'm sure that's a good idea...For sure it will be easier to hide than one long seam across the back--At least to me it looks like an advantage in cosmetics and probably better structurally too. You'll be getting a little shear-like strength with that resulting extra vertical line--I would suspect. All good.

    That motor is wild. EFI? IMO the only way to go..The only EFI motor I have is in my 92Ranger 2.3L and its my best running truck too--mileage/environment and all especially. Hemi/wild. Can't do better.

    Goodluck with that
    Tom
    jerryj
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    Post  jerryj Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:24 pm

    Thanks Tom. Those staggered cuts have tons of advantages but probably the biggest is strength. Also the rear section was cake to re-align because of those cuts. The "A" pillars were the only places I didn't stagger the cuts. This is not the first chop I have done but it was probably the most challenging. Last year I helped a young man chop his El Camino. He actually did the all the work I just supervised. Below is a picture of his car. It should be on an upcoming episode of My Classic Car.

    37 Ford five window coupe Elcamino

    As far as the EFI system goes, I have put a great deal of thought and work so that all the sensors, wires and all elements of the system are concealed. I could probably write a book about the engine alone.
    stevof1
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    Post  stevof1 Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:36 am

    Great post. I like the chp and an envious of your engine. This will be a fun build to watch.
    Darkside Dave
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    Post  Darkside Dave Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:23 am

    jerryj wrote:Thanks Dave. I'm sorry it took me so long to get this posted. I should have some more to post next week but it's to darn hot to work out in that barn.

    [b]

    Tell me about it Man... My only salvation is that my shop is air conditioned. If it weren't for that I wouldn't go near the place in this heat. As you know, I'm in about the same latitude as you are and only a little over 100 air miles to the East. I even let the yard go for two weeks because I was not about to go out there in that heat and deal with it. We had a car show last week and another on this Saturday. I'm dreading that. At least this one is on grass and there is some shade.

    Later Man...
    DL BOGART
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    37 Ford five window coupe Empty heat!!!!!!!!!

    Post  DL BOGART Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:12 am

    I can only stand to be in the garage early in the am or after dark. My only projects are the garage itself, and some home improvements. Haven't found my next project yet. Great build, lotsa work but doin a great job!
    tomget
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    Post  tomget Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:38 am

    I like that El Camino Jerry/nice. I'm more into customs now than in most of my building career. Its funny how things I didn't like when I was a kid or later even/now I'm thinking they're the best. haha. I guess we change. I've kinda been on the look out for a 50Ford 2 door or similar--I'd like to make a easy does it Custom. Nothing super radical, but a sorta classic 50Merc like custom..Chopped low to the ground/probably air bags..but? maybe not and some sort of fancy paint too. I wouldnt even dream of finding a 50 Merc or similar that I could afford. Of course a 40 or 50 Merc would be my first choices. Although they've been so well customized maybe I wouldn't want my work compared to the great ones already out there. But nowadays I'm getting a little long in the tooth and short on the finances. I think maybe caretaking what I've already built may be the best I can do...But who know's I cruise Craigs list on occassion and keep my eyes open for unfinished or unstarted(my first choice) candidates. "you never know if you dont' try"
    stevof1
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    Post  stevof1 Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:49 pm

    Tom at the rate I'm going, you could have at it on my 48! Smile Steve.
    tomget
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    Post  tomget Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:45 pm

    stevof1 wrote:Tom at the rate I'm going, you could have at it on my 48! Smile Steve.
    I was thinking about you Steve---Come on Get Going with that---you're almost done...Don't give up. Its normal to take a breather. We all do it. You made a tremendous and rapid beginning-all good--now you've just tired of all. Boy do I know how that is. The secret as taught to me...and I've told others--hope I'm not repeating myself to you, but one has to make a "deal with themselves" to just go out and do "something"/"anything" on the truck for 10minutes. And after 10 minutes you're allowed to quit..but until you've done the 10 minutes of whatever..work. Maybe even just looking at it for 10 minutes. Its some sort of "trick" because after 10minutes on anything/cars/trucks/household chores--doesn't matter what it is..mostly almost always one just gets into it and continues for hours or less/but continues all the same, and feel good about it! Why that is I don't know. But I've used that trick of "self motivation" all my life, and its been working and helpful for me.

    You're almost done..
    jerryj
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    Post  jerryj Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:30 pm

    It's has been just to hot to work out in that steel barn. I have made some progress but mostly on the engine. I went to the Street Rod Nationals with a couple friends last weekend and had a blast. It amazes me that so many of the vendors just seem to have the attitude that their time is way more important than mine. I went down there expecting to spend some real $ but I guess my money wasn't good enough. I even got upset enough to ask the guy do I need to be wearing an Armani suit for you to take interest.

    37 Ford five window coupe Chop%2013

    I've had the doors done but just got around to taking a picture. I have been thinking about suicide doors. What do you think?

    37 Ford five window coupe Hemi_eng_3

    I picked up a few parts for the engine at the Nationals.
    Darkside Dave
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    37 Ford five window coupe Empty And then what'd he say ???

    Post  Darkside Dave Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:05 am

    [b]

    Hi Jerry,

    YOU WROTE:
    "I went down there expecting to spend some real $ but I guess my money wasn't good enough. I even got upset enough to ask the guy do I need to be wearing an Armani suit for you to take interest."

    So, what was his response? I run into this once in a great while and I have to wonder what the owners of these companies would have to say to these people if they knew what was going on. I have been known to make calls and send e-mails. You would be surprised how much response you get from the top.

    Man you are so right about the heat... Yesterday was the first time in weeks that I have been able to open the shop doors and actually feel comfortable while working. My electric bill for the air conditioning is probably going to top $300.00 this month.

    Suicide doors eh??? I don't know about that... I like it the way it is but hey, that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I like what you have done so far but sometimes I think the projects tend to go too far. There is something to be said for minimalism.

    Later Man...


    Last edited by Darkside Dave on Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
    stevof1
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    Post  stevof1 Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:03 pm

    tomget wrote:
    stevof1 wrote:Tom at the rate I'm going, you could have at it on my 48! Smile Steve.
    I was thinking about you Steve---Come on Get Going with that---you're almost done...Don't give up. Its normal to take a breather. We all do it. You made a tremendous and rapid beginning-all good--now you've just tired of all. Boy do I know how that is. The secret as taught to me...and I've told others--hope I'm not repeating myself to you, but one has to make a "deal with themselves" to just go out and do "something"/"anything" on the truck for 10minutes. And after 10 minutes you're allowed to quit..but until you've done the 10 minutes of whatever..work. Maybe even just looking at it for 10 minutes. Its some sort of "trick" because after 10minutes on anything/cars/trucks/household chores--doesn't matter what it is..mostly almost always one just gets into it and continues for hours or less/but continues all the same, and feel good about it! Why that is I don't know. But I've used that trick of "self motivation" all my life, and its been working and helpful for me.

    You're almost done..
    Yeah Tom. I'm close but with some issues that need attention. I need to either make a custom header for the drivers side, or move the engine foward enough to clear the steering box. That means, new drive line, new transmission mount and rewelded motor mounts. So I took a break to think about it. Plus cash is tight now. A friend/mechanic mioght take over at this point, just gonna be costly! In the mean time everything seems to be needing repair around the house, so alot of time and energy and cash are going into household maintenance! Oh well sooner or later I'll get to it.
    jerryj
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    Post  jerryj Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:34 pm

    Dave, I had it happen at the Good Guys show last year with a guy from H&H. I called the shop and talked to the owner about it and it ended up that he was the person I was calling about. I told both of them the same thing about the suit and also stated that the bad economy must not be effecting their business if they could treat potential customers like that. In both cases they apologized. I have owned a couple of businesses: one was the second largest archery shop in the country and a engineering firm with offices in Dayton, OH., Orlando, FL. and Oklahoma City supporting both military and commercial contracts. I was self employed from 1988 until 2004 when I semi retired at 44 years old. I would never treat my customers like that. If I have a problem with someone they are going to know it. It's simple, I'll give you the same respect you give me. It amazes me how many people in our own hobby have such a negative and unsociable attitude. That's one of the main reasons I like this site. People are helpful, encouraging and are open minded to all types of projects.

    I'm not totally sold on the suicide doors yet either so I thought I'd through it out there.
    Darkside Dave
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    Post  Darkside Dave Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:23 pm

    jerryj wrote:Dave, I had it happen at the Good Guys show last year with a guy from H&H. I called the shop and talked to the owner about it and it ended up that he was the person I was calling about. I told both of them the same thing about the suit and also stated that the bad economy must not be effecting their business if they could treat potential customers like that. In both cases they apologized. I have owned a couple of businesses: one was the second largest archery shop in the country and a engineering firm with offices in Dayton, OH., Orlando, FL. and Oklahoma City supporting both military and commercial contracts. I was self employed from 1988 until 2004 when I semi retired at 44 years old. I would never treat my customers like that. If I have a problem with someone they are going to know it. It's simple, I'll give you the same respect you give me. It amazes me how many people in our own hobby have such a negative and unsociable attitude. That's one of the main reasons I like this site. People are helpful, encouraging and are open minded to all types of projects.

    I'm not totally sold on the suicide doors yet either so I thought I'd through it out there.




    Jerry,
    I see more and more of this kind of behavour and thinking, (if you can call this thinking), every day. I cannot believe the level of stupidity the general public seems to have fallen to over the past ten years. The worst thing is that supposedly educated people act this way.

    Don't put too much stock in my opinion about the door thing. That's just me. When it's all said and done, the only person you have to impress is you.

    Thanks for the kind words about the Darkside board. I started this thing as a way to draw together people who normally do not think in the way of the mainstream. As you may have noticed, there are very few rules here. I was trying for a place for a free and open exchange of ideas and lots of pictures and build threads. After this long I was hoping there would be more activity here. I have noticed we get about one new member a week on the average but the amount of posting does not seem to keep up with the slowly increasing membership. Hopefully at some point all this will change. All that said, I still don't care about big membership numbers. I would rather see a few hundred talented members as opposed to thousands of people who are just asking silly questions about why their tail lights don't work. I know there are quite a few talented people on this board and I do wish they would participate more. That is just one reason why I was glad to see your build thread start.

    OK, gotta go... Later Man...
    DL BOGART
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    37 Ford five window coupe Empty suicide doors

    Post  DL BOGART Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:26 pm

    I can understand a bit of trepidation on your part concerning them. I was looking at hinge kits to put rear suicide doors on my next project, and found a guy who sells plans for them for 10 bucks! I almost ordered them, they include cad drawings, assembly instructions, complete bill of materials etc. Actually a very good bargain. Then I looked at the photos of another kit and came up with my own penciled in plans. It may take some trial and error to get the dimensions right, but I think I'll try it whenever I actually find the junker(s) I need to start out with. My big concern is having a door come open at hiway speeds and rip my kids out of the seat with it. I also have a safety latch that only aloows them to open when the front door is open in mind for that concern. on a tudor of course it is all down to the operator being smarter than the machine. Your project looks great so far! Looks like you have covered all the bases in getting it to fit back together smoothly. I stretched the cab on a '57 chevy pickup back in the '90s, and hadn't considered all the curves before I cut and had hell getting the crown of the roof to match up! Never actually did get it totaly smooth. I however did learn from my mistake and am eager to do another stretch, this time on '87 ford ranger of all things, to make a crew cab. Dumb huh! The biggest problem now is I need it for work every day, so I need to find 2 more to build a cab while I'm still using this one...and of course the house keeps all the money used up.....
    jerryj
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    Post  jerryj Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:33 pm

    Thanks for input and compliments DL BOGART. How about this idea:

    37 Ford five window coupe Van_door

    This is Corey (my son) car. I could easily do this on my project. It would certainly be different!
    DL BOGART
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    37 Ford five window coupe Empty rear doors

    Post  DL BOGART Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:18 am

    Certainly unique! Good to see family invovlment!
    58 ford
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    Post  58 ford Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:29 pm

    HI Jerry

    Really like the coupe!!
    With sucide doors it would remind me of ZZTOPS coupe!!
    I know some progects can get slowed down just like mine, But you seem well on the way.
    Later Andrew
    jerryj
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    Post  jerryj Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:15 pm

    Thanks Andrew, I just came in from working on it. I need to add some more pictures.


    Last edited by jerryj on Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  jerryj Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:54 pm

    I haven't had much time to work on my project but I have been making some progress. Lately I have been focused on the EFI system and sensors.

    37 Ford five window coupe Fuel_1

    I posted a picture earlier in this thread that showed the underside of the blower intake. The labels in this picture show AN fittings that are connected to the fuel rails. Fuel enters the pass side rail from the rear of the engine. I will post some pictures of that area when I finish some really trick modifications. The fuel will come out of the drivers side rail eventually be going to a pressure regulator.

    37 Ford five window coupe Fuel_2

    I machined this block to simulate the barrel valve. It's just a pass through for the fuel but it also houses the TPS sensor.

    37 Ford five window coupe Fuel_3

    Here is the under side of the hat. Notice that the both outside butterfly channels are sealed off so only the center one allows air into the blower. The old jets are plugged. There is a cover for the back of the TPS block and the signal wires will be hidden in the old fuel line feed.

    37 Ford five window coupe Filter_top

    This is the first filter assembly I made but I need to change it. I didn't realize the pod filters necked down to a smaller diameter on the inside. That single butterfly has about 10" of surface area unfortunately the two filter where only 8" so it would be like trying to feed a garden hose with a fire hose. The new filter system will use a rectangular K&N filter made for a Harley Davidson XR1200.

    37 Ford five window coupe Filter_bot

    The not to exciting underside of the filter and hat assembly.

    I know some of you are going to say that the blower requires fuel added from the top. In racing applications that would be true for several reasons. Typically these blowers were originally used as air pumps with no fuel passing through them. Even tho this blower will spin at higher rpm's it was assembled with looser tolerances so the thermal expansion will not be a problem. All the bearings and seals have been upgraded for street use. I know some one with a similar setup that has over 7K miles on it with out any problems,


    Last edited by jerryj on Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Darkside Dave
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    Post  Darkside Dave Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:30 am

    jerryj wrote:I haven't had much time to work on my project but I have been making some progress. Lately I have been focused on the EFI system and sensors.


    I know some of you are going to say that the blower requires fuel added from the top. In racing applications that would be true for several reasons. Typically these blowers were originally used as air pumps with no fuel passing through them. Even tho this blower will spin at higher rpm's it was assembled with looser tolerances so the thermal expansion will not be a problem. All the bearings and seals have been upgraded for street use. I know some one with a similar setup that has over 7K miles on it with out any problems,




    Hi Jerry,

    Good to see you making progress. When I read the above paragraph I was a bit surprised to read the part about poeple thinking there should be a fuel mixture passing through the blower. The Roush/Ford supercharged EFI engins are essentially the same idea you have built except that the blowers are smaller than what you have and even my old 1990 T-Bird Super Coupe V6 is like that. I think some people think there is a difference in super chargers and blowere because they equate super chargers with the old Paxton types that were put on Studebakers and some other cars years ago as well as more recent installations on Mustangs. They also equate blowers with the long standing practice of stacking the typical Roots design type blower on top of an engine with either carbs or injectors stacked on top with the fuel mix going through the blower. In the end it makes no difference if it is a fuel mix or straight air going through the blower. Essentially air compression is being accomplished either way you look at it. The roots type blowers are a positive displacement air compressors and have for years been used as such in industry. The Paxton types are centrifugal blowers not unlike the standard vacuum cleaner or leaf blower uses. I think the real issue here is that the roots type blower lends itself the the compression and passing of a fuel/air mixture much easier than doea a centrifugal blower.

    First Ford and now a few others have or are about to introduce direct high pressure electronic injection with turbo chargers much the same as the latest wave of diesel engins do. I'm just waiting to see how long it will be until someone starts introducing after market DI to the hot rodding and speed world which in turn will bring on a host of innovations using blowers and turbo chargers. I have to admit I am somewhat amazed at how turbo chargers are being so sucessfully introduced in to the drag racing world. Given the fact that the main disadvantage of the TC is the bottom end where it is everything in the drag racing world.

    Anyway, It's great to see you making progress and also I did notice the machining work you did. I love to see when people do stuff like that as I also have a Bridgeport mill and two lathes. I won't claim to be a machinist but I do make a custom part or use them to modify something every once in a while. I am thinking of adding a forum here dedicated to featuring such work in detail. I know there are a lor of little innovations folks create to do a job or make different components work together. In most cases that is the cleverest work they do that never gets seen or noticed at car shows and the like.

    OK, gotta go for now...

    Later Man...


    jerryj
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    Post  jerryj Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:25 pm

    Thanks Dave. Most of the blower manufactures tell customers a percentage of the fuel needs to come through the top. I talked to guy last week he told me Littlefield told him he needed at least 16% and in his case that is probably a good idea. His blower has the Teflon strips and I'm assuming much tighter tolerances for more efficiency. The fuel will provide additional cooling and lubrication. In my case I really don't care about the loss of boost, it's more about the cool look factor.


    Last edited by jerryj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Darkside Dave
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    Post  Darkside Dave Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:51 am

    jerryj wrote:Thanks Dave. Most of the blower manufactures tell customers a percentage of the fuel needs to come through the top. I had a guy contact me Friday because Littlefield told him he needed at least 16% and in his case that is probably a good idea. His blower has the Teflon strips and much tighter tolerances for more efficiency which is required for racing. The fuel will provide additional cooling and lubrication. In my case I really don't care about the loss of boost, it's more about the cool look factor.



    Hi Jerry,
    Yeah, I get all that but the fact remains that this same identical design is used widely in industry for big high volume air compressors that hold pressures well in excess of 100 PSI and and in some cases run 24/7 with nothing but air going through them. I seriously doubt that the boost pressure you will maintain under worst conditions will ever reach those operating levels. With that factor in mind I doubt you will ever have a problem even if you made it a daily driver. I would have to say they would be more inclined to want some fuel going through them to keep moisture from high humidity conditions from causeing corrosion. As for the teflon wipers, just consider the fact that they make oilless compressors with teflon rings on the pistons and they never get any kind of lubrication or cooling. However, all that said, I'm sure the manufacture has some reason for wanting fuel to go through the blower. My V6 T-Bird SC engine has the same typical design blower, (although smaller), and it has gone over 100K and still works great. No fuel ever goes through it. Also consider the fact that originally the blowers from the 671 diesel engines were borrowed and adapted to hot rodding and racing back in the 60s. In their diesel application they only had air going through them. For me all this adds up to one definite conclusion, and that is that you are never goint to have a problem running dry.

    Later Man...

    Dave






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