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DARKSIDER In the world of automotive hobbyists a Darksider is one who modifies and or customizes any and all sorts of vehicles. The Darksiders are in a class of their own simply because they endeavor to be different and do things that others would not attempt for a number of reasons mostly being related to a lack of ability and fear of non conformity.

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Darksider's Realm

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    Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

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    Darkside Dave
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    Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Darkside Dave on Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:04 am


    Hi Folks,

    I am contemplating a major change in plans for one of my projects. So, allow me to explain... My project can be found by going to

    http://darksidersrealm.forumotion.com/what-kind-of-truck-f4/first-53-build-thread-t204.htm

    You can also go to http://www.pvpmedia.com/WTP.htm to see more details about the project.

    Originally I was going with a 351W and it's associated drive train but recently I acquired a wrecked '90 T-Bird Super Coupe which I started a thread about that you can read at

    http://darksidersrealm.forumotion.com/what-kind-of-car-f3/thunder-chicken-in-the-roost-t327.htm

    Response to that thread has been mixed as to what I should do with it. The camp seems divided among those who think I should restore it and those who are supporting my idea to use the drive train and suspension in something else. I am leaning toward using the parts in my '53 build, the Radio Flyer.

    OK, so here's the fly in the ointment so to speak. The SC is an OBD-1 car. The dash and instrumentation I plan on using is out of a '97 Explorer, which is an OBD-2 car. You may wonder why I want to use that dash. Well. it's going to be a damn near perfect fit and am using an Explorer firewall and floor pan integrated into the old '53 cab. This is because I am also using the Explorer 4WD rolling chassis. I had planned on using as much of the existing wiring harness and instrumentation as possible. If I use the drive train from the '90 SC I will of course need to use the PCM and associated wiring. This is inevitably going to lead to a need to marry the two systems in some way.

    One thought that crossed my mind was to find a later SC that had the OBD-2 system and getting the PCM and associated engine wiring harness from it. I am also going to look on ebay for a wiring and electrical diagrams manual for the '90 and maybe a later OBD-2 SC. That way maybe I can figure out how to do this.

    Right now I am in the stage of planning and collecting parts. The only work I have done so far is harvest parts from donors and some prep work on the chassis. I will not commit to this plan until I know more. There are also a few other mechanical issues to be solved as well.

    What I need here is information. I'm sure that many of you have opinions regarding doing or not doing this. While I respect that, opinions are not what I am looking for here. My decisions will be based onthe degree of do-ability and feasibility, not if it's worth doing. Please keep in mind, thgis is the sort of stuff I live for and this thing is for me, not to sell or impress others. The only guy I need to impress is me.

    OK, if you guys have information you regard as helpful I want to hear about it.

    Later Folks...


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    FORDBOYpete

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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  FORDBOYpete on Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:43 am

    Dave,
    I have the same problem (sort of) with my 85 T-Bird Elan' which is an old EEC IV/CFI Speed density system and my 88 Grand Marquis 5.0L roller engine, upgraded from, 88 SEFI/TPI to Later OBD 1 MAFS-TP/EFI. It's easy to use the OBD-1 as a stand alone, BUT. . . . . the Elan has the digital dash, I mean complete digital, with the S.T.A.R. capability Plus can be converted to Metric readout & has preformance+ economy read out too etc.
    I can't figure or find out how to make that conversion. Language is not the same" between the 2 systems.
    The same problem exists between OBD-1 & OBD-II because OBD II uses 2X the signals, or twice as many signals (often 2X sensors also) to do what OBD-1 does with simple call & response (1 Outbound/Inbound Signal)to read.

    Were as OBD II is Ping, & Echo then Call & Response. If both seem to agree OBD II will make it's next move.
    If they do not agree it will start a "Pending Code" file & watch operation for the same anomaly again. If so it may generate a DTC.. . . Or it may Not generate a DTC. It all depends on more variables. It is similar to how our government works, I guess because our Govt. is who mandated the common DTC regulation so there'd be a universal DTC language. There still isn't a completely "universal" DTC language due to the Manufactures
    Proprietary codes. In short OBD II system is dsigned to give non OEM personnel a peek, but not a complete explaination of system operation. Sort of a "1/2 Assed Approach".

    I know you asked not to "pee on your Parade, or tell you IT CAN NOT BE DONE, but if it can, I don't know how to do it. It's like mixing MAC & WINDOWS Op Sys, or trying to run a windows or MAC program in Fortran or COBAL. Or teach American students by speaking in Chinese or the ol' WW II Navajo Code Talker language. The fundamental "programs" the Operating systems are in and run by simply are not compatible with each other.

    You could build an analog panel and use analog guages to monitor "engine op" but it would need to be another "stand alone" system.

    Sorry about that. I heard one can purchase custom guages & instruments that run in various Op Sys programs like OBD-I vs OBD-II, but I don't have that sort of money so I pass on it. Probably uses a translator box , or an E-Prom chip to converts OEM signal but that's just a guess.


    Good luck with resolving this dilema. This is why my T Bird sits around a lot "LOL" . . . . . Also why my "Slick" has analog instrumentation. study
    CIAO

    FBp Rolling Eyes
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    autocrosser

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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  autocrosser on Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:12 pm

    What OBD2 functions are there in the dash that you want to use? AFAIK OBD1 is only monitoring the polution control parameters of the engine, and only the CEL light on the dash is a direct part of that system. OBD2 has a lot more "tenticles" and tests/monitors the safety functions of the vehicle as well. A careful comparison of the two wiring diagrams should give you a good idea about their commonality. It should be much easier to use a OBD1 ECU. Even if the engine sensors are the same you'll still need to connect or add trick bypasses for a lot of other systems to prevent the ECU from going into limp mode or completely shutting down.
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Darkside Dave on Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:37 pm


    Thanks Guys,

    I think that maybe the best bet is to find a '95 or later SC with OBD-2 that I can rob for computer and engine wiring harness. I have found the electrical diagrams manual online and I ordered it for the SC. I already have the one for the Explorer. For some unknown reason, they put the control module in the trunk space of the SC. Go Figure...

    There are other more complicated publications available for these vehicles that concern the ECM/PCM systems. I have one for a '93 van that I got when I ordered the entire set of books for it when it was new. That thing is essentially is a big 7" thick binder that covers a lot of different models. I have to think there is something like that out there for these vehicles but it is most likely out of print by now. I haven't found any on ebay yet.

    I know that on the Explorers and Rangers, the module that controls the engine has a separate wiring harness that is mainly under the hood and so is the module although is sits back into the firewall. I don't know about the later Birds and SC's but they may be that way too. I am going to need more time in the junkyards to figure that out.

    I have a pretty good background in electronics and instrumentation systems so if I can get decent documentation I should be able to figure it out. I know the SC's are going to be different because they are supercharged. Or at least I would think they would be.

    My main reason for starting this thread is to pick the brains of anyone who has any experience with these particular models or knows anything about using them in other than stock applications. Hopefully somebody will know somebody that might have something to contribute. One detriment is the fact that we are talking about 15 t0 20 year old stuff here. It's really tough to get answers when something is either too new or too old. I'd really like to pick the brains of some folks who were involved in the engineering of this stuff back then.

    I'm not concerned with all the pollution and EPA stuff as there is no emission testing or requirements for this kind of thing here in Ohio. It's titled as a '53 F-100 even though there will be very little left of a '53 other than some body parts. I guess it's really going to be a 53/90/95/97 Fordamakallit pseudo pick up.

    Later Folks...


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    55f350

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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  55f350 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:19 pm

    AND I BUILT IT ONE PIECE AT A TIME ........
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Darkside Dave on Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:41 pm

    55f350 wrote:AND I BUILT IT ONE PIECE AT A TIME ........





    Doesn't everybody???


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    55f350

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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  55f350 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:02 pm

    uhhuh but i'm poking fun at ya dave . your about as crazed as i am ..... only you get the stuff done and i may begin then get p.o.'d and give up for a bit . good luck finding an sc from 95 up . they're as rare as hens teeth around here , as well as any bird or cougar that isn't rotted away so bad ....... i'll run up to athens on my way to peoria tommorrow , as i know where there is a 96 sitting a sc , with auto , for sale but never stopped as i figured it was way to much anyway . for some reason or another i want to say there was a difference in the ecu's from 95 to 96-7 ........
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Darkside Dave on Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:37 pm


    Yeah, most likely I'll be doing a Frankenstein circuit or two to get everything working. What really blows my mind about the '90 is that they put the ECU way back in the trunk. What's up with that???

    Later Man...


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    I have learned more now...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:59 pm


    OK Folks,
    Since my last post I have acquired the EVTS Manual for the '90 Super Coupe. I already have the one for the '99 Explorer and I have spent several evenings making comparisons. I think I can do what I want to do. While I am not concerned about getting the OBD-2 functions that the OBD-1 system does not have, I do intend to get the OBD-1 port installed so those functions can be seen. My real challenge is going to be getting the Explorer's instruments and control functions to work with the Super Coupe's stuff as I want the Explorer dash and instruments to appear and work as they did in the Explorer. We have a build thread posted here on the Darkside by a fellow who has put the same Super Coupe drive train in an S-10 so it will be cool if we can get him to post some of his experiences and findings here in this forum.

    See: http://darksidersrealm.forumotion.com/what-kind-of-truck-f4/lil-bastard-91s10-with-a-38lsc-t342.htm F0or his build thread.

    Later Folks...



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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Ninja on Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:03 pm

    If ur just going to use the dash the obd I dosent send anything to it all the dash sigs minus the vss are from standalone sensors. The Temp is standalone, along with oil press, volts is a no brainer, and if u use the exp fuel tank sender it is in the tank. Ill take a look at the exp schmatics tom. For the most part just put the exp senders in the proper places and u should be golden. Save those pig tails!
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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Darkside Dave on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:32 pm

    Ninja wrote:If ur just going to use the dash the obd I dosent send anything to it all the dash sigs minus the vss are from standalone sensors. The Temp is standalone, along with oil press, volts is a no brainer, and if u use the exp fuel tank sender it is in the tank. Ill take a look at the exp schmatics tom. For the most part just put the exp senders in the proper places and u should be golden. Save those pig tails!


    Yeah, so far as I van see by what I have studied so far in both the ETVM's I have, that has been my take on the situation. I may decide to build in an interface junction box under the hood to mate up whatever is common between the two electrical systems as it is my intention to make it all look neat enough to pass as manufactured. Like you said, save all the pigtails. I'm obsessive about that kind of thing. I try very hard to remove entire wiring harnesses with out cutting anything off and I even go so far as to tape labels on the connectors to say what they were for and what they went to. When I'm at the junkyards I even collect the connectors and stuff the idiots whack out. I have a building full of that kind of stuff. Although I probably will never need half that stuff I still do it. If the SC is anything like the '90 Lincoln Mark VII we took apart, the harness associated with the engine and the ECM will be ea silly separated from the rest of the stuff. Since I am using all the Exp firewall, dash, controls and instruments I intend to use the entire under dash harness and the through the firewall bulkhead connectors. The plan is that when this thing is done it will be as much like driving and being in an Explorer or Ranger

    And BTW, I also agree with you about sings as much OEM stuff as possible because the parts are much more abundant and available not to mention a lot cheaper. Most of the aftermarket stuff is inferior in my opinion and not nearly worth what they want for it. I have all kinds of equipment and I can make about anything I need. CLICK HEREto see my shop and equipment.

    Later Man...




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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Ninja on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:09 pm

    Well like i said the suppercoupe uses a standalone sender for each dash unit minus the speedo and volts. The explorer i beleave uses the newer style that feeds the comp then the dash but all u have to do is send the proper voltage to those sensors (being a 5v or mabey a 12v) and then feed the sig return line directly into ur dash and there u have it. The real nice thing is they used the same pipe fittings (In my case anyways) for the comp senders as the dash senders. If memory serves me right should be a slam dunk in ur case also. Me im screwing in gm senders (also going to retain stock dash for the moment) while urs will be a lil easier. Ill know a lil more tomm when i look at the schmatics. Also another thing ive run into that just frustrates me. Our Modis on the 90 sc comp can only look at codes and run the KOEO and KOER. ARGH!!! Im gonna try to advance the year on the input and see if i cant get a damn data stream on this thing. I hate not being able to look at the data. (the generic backdoor global obd2 is actually better at this because u see what is sent not what the comp replaces with baselines.) But alas.

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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Ninja on Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:25 am

    From what im seeing

    Temp Red/white wire coming off temp sender right to dash

    Oil dark green/white wire coming off oil sender right to dash

    Tach tan/yellow wire coming off junction conector

    Now ur speedo looks a lil dicy the vss sensor feeds the 4wabs module and then goes to the dash so idk bout that one.
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Mixing OBD-1 and OBD-2 ???

    Post  Darkside Dave on Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:39 pm

    Ninja wrote:From what im seeing



    Now ur speedo looks a lil dicy the vss sensor feeds the 4wabs module and then goes to the dash so idk bout that one.


    Yeah, I saw that too. That one is going to take a little work. All the changes and variations in the peripheral modules between models and years does add to the confusion. I am going to also try to get the cruise stuff to work. I think it will because the stuff in the steering wheel seems the same on either although there are some interconnection issues. Thanks for looking. It will actually be a while before I get to that point as I am still in the midst of joining the cab to the Explorer fire wall and floor pan. Of course there is a hold up there too. My Plasma Cutter crapped out but they sent me a new board for it and I got it today. Maybe in a few hours I can get that thing back online. It's about 1,000% better than the cutting torch which scorches and set shit on fire.

    Later Man...



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    Here's a thought...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Sat May 01, 2010 10:53 am


    Ninja,

    Got to thinking about something... The Chassis I am using is '99 Explorer. The dash and associated modules and instruments are from a '97 Explorer because the '99 was gutted when I got it. The '90 SC has what they refer to as ABS as opposed to being called RABS or 4WABS, but the system does employ 4 wheel sensing and an electric hydraulic pump. I'm leaning toward using the '97-'99 Explorer brake control system if I can. I plan on setting the complete Independent Rear Suspension system from the SC under the rear of the rolling Explorer chassis I am using since I can swap the gears out of the Explorer's 8.8" into the fixed 8.8" diff in the SC IRS. So long as the two rear sensors are wired into the Explorer system I would think it would work. What's you opinion???

    Here is what I have noticed in comparing the two systems. The SC used two independent rear wheel sensors where as the Explorer used one rear axle sensor. It would seem to me that some kind of adaptive circuitry would have to be employed to make this work or else I would have to abandon the two sensors for a single sensor set up. that would probably involve a bit of machining work unless the access point is also in the fixed diff case on the SC.

    I have also noticed that speed, (cruise), control is an integral part of the ECM in the SC where as it seems to be independent in the Explorers. I'm just interested in you take and opinions on all of this.

    I am thinking maybe that you are starting to think I am going to extremes with my plans and thoughts here but these things were all a part of my initial plan and vision for this project. Yeah, I'm a gadget guy and I admit it. My friend calls me the Intense One for obvious reasons. I mean who else would start a board like this one??? You may have noticed that I am also a Ham Radio guy. My interest in Ham Radio was primarily being able to design, build and experiment with data and control systems working in the VHF, UHF and Microwave regions of the spectrum as opposed to the average Ham that just wants to talk to someone half way around the world. That for me is not what I'm into. I have phones and the internet for that stuff. I am planning on integrating some of my radio stuff into the systems in this project so I can use direct RF linking, cell phones, and the internet through the Echolink network to virtually control a lot of functions in this vehicle. Let's call it my own personal OnStar on steroids system.

    Is all this I want to do necessary??? No it isn't. But it is a personal challenge and it's something for an old geezer like me to do while I'm waiting to die. If I don't get it done it will pass on to my techy head son who is almost as extreme as I am. You should see what he's building...

    So if you are intrigued or interested, just humor me and let's see what happens.

    Later Man...


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