Darksider's Realm

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DARKSIDER In the world of automotive hobbyists a Darksider is one who modifies and or customizes any and all sorts of vehicles. The Darksiders are in a class of their own simply because they endeavor to be different and do things that others would not attempt for a number of reasons mostly being related to a lack of ability and fear of non conformity.

This is a forum for people who think outside the box in everything they do. It doesn’t matter if you are modifying or building from scratch. It doesn’t matter what brand or brands of vehicles or components you are using. It doesn’t matter if you are working on a mini car or a bus.

We will not be asking you for donations or any kind of monetary payments. We will be asking for help in terms moderators and encouraging you to spread the word and add to our membership.

Darksider's Realm

A message board & forum for automotive builders, fabricators and customizers who think outside the box.


    First '53 Build Thread

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    Darkside Dave
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    Not Again !!!

    Post  Darkside Dave on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:05 pm


    Hi Folks,
    Well, here we go again. As you may have noticed my project has been on the back burner for some time now. My current dilemma is one of positioning the engine and tranny. Two problems are stumping me. First the top loaded shifter is way to far forward and there are also issues positioning the engine so that the oil pan clears everything. Also there are issues with the back of the engine interfering with the heat and air equipment on the firewall. I may have a possible solution. I have a chance to buy a transmission and transfer case from a '93 Ford F-150. It's an automatic 4 speed OD tranny. I have several questions but first let me tell you what I am thinking. My plans were to use a supercharged 3.8 V6 T-bird Super Coupe engine with an M5R2 five speed manual OD tranny and transfer case from a circa 1990 F-150. I had the original transmission from the T-Bird but there was no way to mate the tranny to a transfer case so I sold it and bought the version with transfer case. See http://www.pvpmedia.com/m5r2-SC.JPG and http://www.pvpmedia.com/m5r2_4wd_mazda_transmission.jpg to see these transmissions. If you look at the pictures you will see that I am having a real problem with the location of the top loaded shifter on the tranny being way too far forward. This has been a real problem for me and as of yet I have no practical solution. It occurred to me I might be better off with an automatic transmission. One of the main goals of this project has been to have a 4WD truck that does not look like a 4WD. So far I am headed in that direction as the body and bed will sit down enough to make the truck look like is just another 2WD '53.


    I'm thinking the tranny and transfer case combo I mentioned above from the '93 F-150 my be the answer to my problems. However, I do not know what transmission it is and if it is electronic. If it is, I think that will create problems for me as the ECM for the T-Bird engine is set up for a manual tranny. My second question is will the flex plate and TC from the '93 with the 302 fit and work with the 3.8L SC engine. I know it will bolt up because 302 and the 3.8L are the same so far as the bell housing bolt pattern is concerned.If any of you folks out there have answers please let me know. I need to make a decision real soon or this deal will be gone.

    Later Folks...



    Darkside Dave




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    stevof1

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  stevof1 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:46 pm

    Dave I don't know what will or will not work with that combo, so I'm no help there! Wanted to let you know I'm following your post and that you aren't alone here! Engine placement is crucial to making life easier. In my 48 I got around the shifter issue, by using a B&M cable link truck shifter, for my auto c-6 transmission. Not sure what's available for 4x4 setups. My biggest problem right now is the steering box and motor mount locations on the driver's side are making putting headers in on that side a real issue! Anyway I hope someone more knowledgeable than I chime in soon. Steve.
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    tomget

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  tomget on Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:25 pm

    That kind of user friendly fitment..is a concern. How far forward is the shifter? Its inside the cab i trust. I've got a 48IH pickup and the Hurst shifter with GM tranny was directly under my right leg or maybe between my legs and such so I fabbed an elaborate bent over and up shift lever that solved the problem and is still working well after many years. I know it would be harder with what you have...but is something like that worth experimenting with?
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    wmjoe1953

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  wmjoe1953 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:01 pm

    Hey Dave. Making a shifter arm/lever that is bent, will only partially impact the shifter performance. It will not be as tight, and short a throw as if it was with an oe handle, but it will work still. Second, it doesn't appear that the 5.0, and 3.8 share the same flex plate, as the 5.0 is a 50oz imbalence , and the 3.8 I beleive is neutral, with a balance shaft. I would try bending a peice of rod, and test fitting a shifter with the manual trans, and cab in place. Call me if you need to bs about parts.....541-497-3258



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    MidniteAuto

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  MidniteAuto on Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:25 pm

    Hey I would go with a 302 EFI for the swap, the 3,8 is good but the 302 will drop right in with no problems, The 4 spd. OD MAZDA is a great trans Might have to bend the shifter a little.

    Post up some new picts of where your at on this, I am kinda new here.
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  Darkside Dave on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:47 pm


    Thanks to all for the response. I will have to wait a bit until I get the ruck back in the shop. Right now I need my limited shop space to do som,e work in. I really didn't figure I would be back on the truck before March so it's better off tucked away as opposed to just being shoved out in the rain and weather. Here is a picture of approximately where the shifter is plus or minus an inch.
    Keep in miond that the floor and firewall are actually from the '99 Explorer that I got the rolling chassis from. I could end up having the shifter even further forward and it woild be under that circle you see in the sound deadner padding which would be righht up under yhe heat and air stuff. I am using the Explorer dash and all the associated HVAC stuff. It all just bolts right in because I have used the complete Firewall.

    The 302 from the '93 truck is not really thatnmuch of a performer, especially compaired to the SC engine with the super charger. I know that is not really necessary but it sure as hell would be unique and different. I've seen a shitload of these old trucks with 302s in them but never one with this engine. I actually figureed out kow ti set up the linkage with some machine and fabricatint wor using two Ford steering universal joints and a second shifter ball socket form another tranny. It would require modifying the floor tranny tunnel some. While I think the M5R2 would be fun for a while I figure I would get tired of driving it on long trips. Also, I don't think there is enough room up tight under the HVAC stuff to bring up the shifter there and also get it bent back. I think I'd really like the automatic 4 speed OD tranny but it can't be one of the electronic versions. That was why I was asking if anyone knows what was used in the '93 F-150 and how it would mate up to the SC engine. It bolts up OK but I'm not sure about the flex plate and TC.

    Later Folks...


    Darkside Dave
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  Darkside Dave on Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:55 pm

    MidniteAuto wrote:Hey I would go with a 302 EFI for the swap, the 3,8 is good but the 302 will drop right in with no problems, The 4 spd. OD MAZDA is a great trans Might have to bend the shifter a little.

    Post up some new picts of where your at on this, I am kinda new here.

    If you go back through the nine pages of this post, it pretty much is up to date picture wise. I have not been working on this for at least the last six months. Too many other distractions and things that needed done.


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    wmjoe1953

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  wmjoe1953 on Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:30 pm

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-7210-B/ Take a look at this. It the remote mounted shifter for a late model Mustang. Obviously, you posess the skills to alter it as needed.


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    1953 Ford F-750 semi: 6-71 Detroit with 9 speed Road Ranger on air leaf suspension

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1953%20F-750/

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    1954 F-100: Ground up Restoration

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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  Darkside Dave on Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:08 pm

    wmjoe1953 wrote:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-7210-B/ Take a look at this. It the remote mounted shifter for a late model Mustang. Obviously, you posess the skills to alter it as needed.


    Thanks Joe,
    That is pretty much what I had in mind to make with some variation. I'm sure a day or so with the lathe, milling machine and welder would be time well spent to avoid the $169.00 price tag but if one did not have the equipment or time the price is not all that bad. I'm just one of those guys who takes a lot of pleasure in designing and making something as opposed to buying it if at all possible and practical. Besides, I have to show myself some justification for having all this equipment. I will however book mark this in case I get lazy.

    Later Man...



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    DL BOGART

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    shifter

    Post  DL BOGART on Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:16 am

    Looks like that one from summit would be a bolt in, but since it is a replacement one to give shorter throws, maybe somebody has a stock one they took out to put that in for sale, maybe e-bay, or swap meets? trash can at your local speed shop? If you could scrounge one of them it should make your fab time much shorter, and since this gonna be more of a grocery getter anyways, the longer throws from a discarded stock unit shouldn't be a concern.
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    wmjoe1953

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  wmjoe1953 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:49 am

    That Summit link also has pretty good install instructions. You can download them in a PDF, and reference them as you design, and build your own. Bogarts idea works too, except that finding a shop that still has one laying around might be tough. If there is a part of a stock you might need, I can check through work (since I work at a Ford dealership), and see what is actually available, and how much. I may be able to also get a breakdown of the actual assembly, and upload it.


    _________________
    1953 Ford F-750 semi: 6-71 Detroit with 9 speed Road Ranger on air leaf suspension

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1953%20F-750/

    1963 Ford Falcon Futura 2dr Sedan: Finished, and SOLD

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1963%20Futura/

    1954 F-100: Ground up Restoration

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    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1954%20F-100%20project/
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  Darkside Dave on Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:10 pm


    To Joe and Bogart,
    The one for the Mustang in the Summit catalog is pretty much the same thing that I had in mind to build. Unfortunately it will not work on the 4WD version of the M5R2 due to differences in the design. If you go to http://darksidersrealm.forumotion.com/t204p15-first-53-build-thread at about half way down what is page two of this thread, you will see the transmission I have. As you can see it is different than the Mustang tranny. If you noticed from the PDF from Summit, the shifter mechanism is pretty much the same design as the one it replaces except that it shortens the shift stroke. It operates a single shaft into the tranny. What I need to do is connect to and already established shifter lever. My plan is to use the bottom connector of a shift lever with a small steering u-joint welded to it at a right angle. This is connected to a square shaft laying back over the top of the tranny to another identical u-joint which is welded to the base of another shift lever fastened to the ball socket of a shift mechanism I removed from the top of as junk transmission. I doubt this description explains much without the benefit of some pictures or diagrams. Unfortunately I can't provide any of that at this time.

    My point is to seek information regarding an automatic transmission I an thinking of acquiring as a alternative to the 5-speed OD manual tranny I have. The manual tranny is fun but I see no real benefit to me. as a cruiser I would just as soon have an automatic. However, I only have a few days to decide on it and I need some info to do that. If the transmission and transfer case combo is an electronic transmission, (EOD as opposed to AOD), I can't use it because the ECM for the SC engine has no provision for controlling it. I jst need to know what automatic transmission was used in the '93 F-150 with 4WD and a 302. I thought it would be a simple question for all the Ford truck guys out there.

    It seems that I have instead invited a lot of suggestions as to how to use my existing tranny. One person has suggested that I go with the 302 that I can get with the transmission. My recollections of the 302s of that particular time that were used in the trucks is that it was not a great performer. As a matter of fact my V6 SC engine would kick the 302's butt. I also specifically asked if the flex plate and TC would work with the SC engine. So far I have no answers to any of those questions. The net result of all this is I am no further than when I started asking these questions. Hopefully someone will have an answer before I need to make a decision or a 240 mile round trip.

    Later Folks...



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    wmjoe1953

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  wmjoe1953 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:01 pm

    Go with an AOD. Here's a Hemmings link

    http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2006/05/01/hmn_feature5.html

    Here's a pretty good article for a c-4 to AOD swap. Appears to have a lot of very good detailed info.

    http://www.themustangshop.com/c4toaod.cfm/


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    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1953%20F-750/

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    1954 F-100: Ground up Restoration

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    wmjoe1953

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  wmjoe1953 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:07 pm

    Oh yeah, to answer your question.....the AOD was used from about '80-'93. It should be an AOD in a '93 F-150.


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    1953 Ford F-750 semi: 6-71 Detroit with 9 speed Road Ranger on air leaf suspension

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1953%20F-750/

    1963 Ford Falcon Futura 2dr Sedan: Finished, and SOLD

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1963%20Futura/

    1954 F-100: Ground up Restoration

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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  Darkside Dave on Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:30 pm


    I was thinking the same thing but the guy claims it's a 4 speed OD tranny. Is the AOD a four speed? I don't remember. There is also the issue of whether the flex plate and the TC from the 302 will work on the 3.8L SC engine. Now I am again thinking of sticking with the current set up. When I get it back in the shop I am going to try positioning the engine forwards and higher to clear all the 4WD stuff and also allowing enough room to clear the HVAC stuff on the outside of the firewall. I think I will find a mustang in the bone yards with a linkage set up still in tact and liberate it. I think I can modify it do what I want.

    It will be at least a month or so before I get the truck back in my shop. When I do I will go abouit checking this out. Right now I have too much going on. I have to get the cab of the '54 COE stripped down to see what else I need. I have a set of good doors coming from Carl down in Phoenix for it. Thanks to you for that find.

    Later Man...


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    wmjoe1953

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  wmjoe1953 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:56 pm

    The AOD is an overdrive automatic. It does not use a computer to control it. The 5.0 is a 50 oz. imbalance, and the 3.8 is internal with a balance shaft. So no, the 5.0 flex plate won't work on it.


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    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1953%20F-750/

    1963 Ford Falcon Futura 2dr Sedan: Finished, and SOLD

    Check it out @ photobucket:

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    1954 F-100: Ground up Restoration

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  Darkside Dave on Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:29 am

    wmjoe1953 wrote:The AOD is an overdrive automatic. It does not use a computer to control it. The 5.0 is a 50 oz. imbalance, and the 3.8 is internal with a balance shaft. So no, the 5.0 flex plate won't work on it.


    I suspected as much and it has now been verified by both you and havi. So it appears that I only need to get the right flex plate. I assume this means the TC from the F-150 with 302 will work.

    Later Man...


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    wmjoe1953

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  wmjoe1953 on Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:53 am

    Darkside Dave wrote:
    wmjoe1953 wrote:The AOD is an overdrive automatic. It does not use a computer to control it. The 5.0 is a 50 oz. imbalance, and the 3.8 is internal with a balance shaft. So no, the 5.0 flex plate won't work on it.


    I suspected as much and it has now been verified by both you and havi. So it appears that I only need to get the right flex plate. I assume this means the TC from the F-150 with 302 will work.

    Later Man...


    Darkside Dave

    I believe the converter will.


    _________________
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    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1953%20F-750/

    1963 Ford Falcon Futura 2dr Sedan: Finished, and SOLD

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1963%20Futura/

    1954 F-100: Ground up Restoration

    Check it out @ photobucket:

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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  Darkside Dave on Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:05 pm



    I believe the converter will.


    In the end I will probably get a new converter and rebuild the tranny but I figured that I would go for a heavy duty version of the one for the truck. There is a place in California that rebuilds TC's and I bought a heavy duty version for my one ton diesel van that was about $50.00 extra but they weld in all the vanes and use a bigger and heavier duty bearing inside. I'm pretty happy with it. I need to shop around to find a deal on the flex plate. I wouldn't mind a used one if the gear teeth aren't chewed up.

    Later Man...


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    I think I found it...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:29 am


    Hi Folks,
    I think I found the flexplate I need. Check out http://www.theautopartsshop.com/auto-trans-flexplate/dor04668.html# and see if you guys agree. Also check out http://www.theautopartsshop.com/auto+car-usa+parts+year/ford+thunderbird+auto-trans-flexplate+1990.html which is the previous page on this vendor's site. It shows two choices for the 1990 T-bird 3.8L engine. The bottom one is noted speciffically for the SC engine. I'm not sure why there are different flexplates for the SC as opposed to the non super charged version. Neither version shown has the tooth count listed. Compared to what some places list the price is reasonable. I sure would not consider doing this switch to the AOD if the damn flexplate was going to cost me more than the tranny and transfer case.

    I do however wonder if the transfer case with the AOD is a manual or an electric controled unit. Does anyone out there know which was standard with an AOD and 302 combo in a '93 F-150? I am also wondering if the starter I have for the manual M5R2 tranny will work for the AOD.

    Later Folks...



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    wmjoe1953

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  wmjoe1953 on Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:35 pm

    The pictures look to accurately resemble the associated parts, and I see a difference right off the bat. Look at the weight. There isn't one on the SC version, but is on the non-SC version. I know it says the picture may not be the part, but they look to be. The SC version is going to be more accurately balanced in the bottom end than the non-SC version. That may be what the difference is. As for the tranny, as far as I can tell, from some quick searching, is that the AOD is not computer controlled, and a '93 F-150 should have the AOD. The F-250, and F-350 have the AODE, or E4OD, whatever it's called, and it is computer controlled. In '94, the F-150 also got the AODE-E4OD, or whatever the hell they called. As long as it is the 14 bolt pan, AOD, it is the tranny you want for doing the conversion.


    _________________
    1953 Ford F-750 semi: 6-71 Detroit with 9 speed Road Ranger on air leaf suspension

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1953%20F-750/

    1963 Ford Falcon Futura 2dr Sedan: Finished, and SOLD

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1963%20Futura/

    1954 F-100: Ground up Restoration

    Check it out @ photobucket:

    http://s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/wmjoe1953/1954%20F-100%20project/
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    All this could be a waste of time and thread space...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:33 pm


    Hi Folks,
    After all this work and investigation there may not be an automatic transmission to get. The guys who answered my Craigslist ad and committed to a price are now refusing to answer their phone. They probably sold it to someone else and don't have the courtesy or the balls to fess up to it. I would really appreciate a definite answer so I can just move on. That is pretty much what I decided to do now. If the call me back the price is going down.

    Later Folks...

    Darkside Dave
    I have no idea what I'm doing but I'm doing it anyway...


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    mrjaysc

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  mrjaysc on Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:35 pm

    Happen to stumble across this from google. Very cool project!

    I currenly own 2 94 SC's and have some knowledge of the motor and car. If you have any specific SC questions let me know and I'll do my best to help ya.

    If you are still in need for a flex plate I've got one in the shed you can have for the cost of shipping. Nothing wrong with it just had to replace it to match the Maurder converter that I installed.

    shoot me an email if you have any questions I can help with.

    mrjaysc at verizon dot net.

    Good luck with the project!
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    jclars

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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  jclars on Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:22 pm

    Darkside Dave wrote:
    The 302 from the '93 truck is not really thatnmuch of a performer, especially compaired to the SC engine with the super charger. I know that is not really necessary but it sure as hell would be unique and different. I've seen a shitload of these old trucks with 302s in them but never one with this engine.


    Darkside Dave

    Exactly my sentiments Dave and why I am still leaning toward the entire drive train from the 89 SC that I got for free. Despite the taunting of the carbeurated V8 crowd. However, there is one bad head gasket I will need to take care of, which means I might as well do both sides as this appears to have been a common fault with these engines. What is the most economical source for parts on the SC (ie, gasket set). I understand I may have to get new torque to yield head bolts as well.

    Getting closer to starting. That 65 MGB I'm working on is getting closer to the finish line. And the Team123 adapter kit for mounting the t-bird IRS to the F100 frame is now sitting next to the truck, but it hasn't self attached itself yet. That must be a different kit...

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    mrjaysc

    Posts : 3
    Join date : 2012-02-24
    Location : Dover, DE

    Re: First '53 Build Thread

    Post  mrjaysc on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:12 pm

    If you are doing head gaskets on an SC motor do it right and use MLS gaskets. You can use Felpro part numbers 9262PT & 9263PT. These are listed for a 3.8 mustang but they work perfectly on the SC motors. I've got them on car and run 16 pounds of boost and 100 dry nitrous shot at the drag strip and they work well.

    I also suggest instead of getting new torque to yield head bolts to just spend a little more and get some ARP studs. You can use this kit that is listed for a chevy v6. Fits perfectly on the SC.
    summitracing.com/parts/ARP-233-4303/

    They sell a specific kit for the SC but it's 3 times more expensive and the only difference is it comes with bigger washers which is better for more clamping force. So get the Chevy kit then order some of the larger washers.
    summitracing.com/parts/ARP-200-8708/


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    Re: First '53 Build Thread

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