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    Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

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    FORDBOYpete

    Posts : 26
    Join date : 2009-06-22
    Location : East Central FLorida

    Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

    Post  FORDBOYpete on Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:02 am

    Okay, I have this Van that people like to make fun of because they are clueless about it and me. But I recently developed a problem I need to rectify. The engine is a Cologne Built, 4.0L, V-6, OBD-1, EFI powered FoMoCo Like an Iron Duke GM, it's all iron & they last & last. Unfortunately they use Torque To Yield (TTY) head bolts. What I'm learning about TTY's is, that +180 degree tweak after reaching actual torque spec is an arbitrary and capricious maneuver.

    I've come to the conclusion a last tweak of a breaker bar makes for uneven torquing. That causes bolt tensil strength to vary & distort within bolt shanks. Anybody who builds or has built engines knows irregular, uneven torque or torque out of sequence causes head gaskets to eventually fail, or So I Have Learned.

    Okay here's my deal, I passed 230K on my Van 2 weeks ago as I went to Ft. Jackson, SC. On post I got tied up in traffic and did a lot of Idling. I had poor cooling in nearly 100*F ambiant heat there. Temperature guage never got out out of paremeter, but it did rise about half again where it normally runs, not quite center of gauge quadrant over all. I run a 198F T-Stat as spec'd. I use OEM 13# cap & a brand new Aluminum 3 row HD Radiator. After what seemed to be forever in that traffic jamb, I began to detect a slight miss in the engine.
    After clearing the traffic snarl temp qwikly returned to normal range and position. We got on Highways to FLorida. I noticed a stumble as I "breathed" the throttle. If I stabbed it there was no stumble. The stumble turned into a miss at idle, then weak cylinder under a pulling load. We made the trip home. I lost about 5mpg fuel avg'. Engine was not crisp & strong any more. Miss is there at idle. Apparently I pumped out 1.5 Gallons of coolant in about 350 miles. The Van never lost coolant B4. I have no visible leaks in system on inspection. All that info/ diag' = Head gasket to me.

    Van requires body be lifted off front frame, or front frame lowered from body to get at powertrain to do engine work I must do. There's no pulling heads off & replacing gaskets in vehicle in this bad boy. My 1st plan was to do that. Then body lifting became apparent.

    BUT I have a few options to consider. 1st I have 3 engines, 2 on stands & 1 in the Van with the problem. I do not want to just drop an engine, well maybe drop is the wrong word, Put an engine in there off a stand. Both spares ran when I took them out of Vans they came in. Both are OEM Stock. My thoughts now are to R&R the head gaskets and replace the TTY bolts with standard torquable head bolts from ARP on 1 of the spare engines> I'll use EFI set up off current engine in Van. EFI is pristine, fresh & set up right, coil pack is new, primary wires were replaced 5,000 miles ago along with double platnum plugs.

    Anybody got any input on this scheme? Pros or Cons? Anybody here swap the TTY bolts for standard head bolts, or studs on Gen Principles? Objective here is to do it Best
    I can. Not cheapest, Not qwikest, Not easiest, BEST. . . . No I'll not install a GM in my Aerostar under any circumstance. With a handle FORDBOY I just can't do something like that.

    PS
    I'd not change TTY Head Bolts if I had an Alloy Engine or bi-metal construction like Alloy Heads on an Iron Block or vice-a-versa. But Iron on Iron Req's better than TTY Bolts IMHO atleast.


    CIAO Y'all
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    havi

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    Re: Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

    Post  havi on Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:08 pm

    Not a solid answer, but I can give you my opinion based on experience. The Bronco II had the 2.9L which is the precurser to the 4.0. Same headbolts, a T55 (IIRC) torx head bolt that had a tendency to snap or strip while trying to remove. Head-gaskets were a common problem, as the aluminum head on an iron block caused uneven heat/cool cycles. Anyhow, I was told while replacing gaskets, that I had to buy new headbolts each time due to TTY. Then the sequence had to be followed, which included tightening to a certain torque, back off, and retorque. None of the engines I had would last very long after replacing head-gaskets. I assumed it was due to warpage or bad torque sequence and torquing process. I guess your question answers my thoughts a bit.
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    FORDBOYpete

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    Re: Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

    Post  FORDBOYpete on Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:32 pm

    Havi,
    I always have trouble doing combo or "Bi Metal" engines. I don't believe it has as much to do with bolts as with 2 different metals. The coefficient of expansion of aluminum is roughly 2X that of Cast Iron depending on alloys and all. But my point is they do not expand & contract at the same rate in an equal temperature range.

    My Grand Daughter had a sweet SN95 based Mustang Fast back with the new 3.8 V6. It was the biggest piece of crap engine I ever had the misery of working on PERIOD. We had $1200 in just replacing those sandwich style (3 layer) head gaskets and all we bought aside from the usual was a pair of custom made sandwitch head gaskets that compensated for the .025 we had to scrape off the alloy heads to get them flat again. I was appalled at the plastic Intake set up, and the design & quality made me sick. That $1200 was just parts, my oldest son & I did all the work in my own shop. That slug of a car tied up a bay for 10 days. . . . . that's just head gaskets now.

    I got it running sweet, but I knew in my heart it could not last, I had Flatheads with thinner gaskets than we put back on that Pony. If it woofed a set of stock OEM gaskets why would anybody expect those fat 3 ply gaskets would last at all?

    The 4.0 Cologne is all iron & has huge miles on it. There is zero warpage and only 1 rear outer bolt has given up it's elasticity allowing coolant under PSI to encroach into the combustion chamber on the intake stroke I presume. It's enough to foul the plug, create a misfire, & cause a "pulsing" disruption in air column flow through intake plenum. After really studying it I am sure it's the Torque to yeild bolt design that caused the malfunction.

    It you do another, use antisieze on the head bolt threads, especially if you have alloy involved. BI & Tri metal engines create measurable electrolysis in the engine coolant and steel to Iron or alloy tends to "weld" itself together, well not really weld, but bind up due to electrolytic action.

    I know that sounds wierd, but Google it, I think you will find a few articles on it.

    Sometimes I think "clunkers" are the better machines. I am convinced OBD-1 is far superior to any and all OBD-2 engine control systems. OBD-2 suffers from Government Intervention and an attempt to universalize DTC's among all the different OEMs and all their different engine & performance control system.
    The Govt's Objective was after all universal DTC'c (Digital Trouble Codes) so that independents could repair any make/ model but that's not what has happened, IMHO.

    Oh Well, thanks for the reply.


    CIAO Y'all FBp study scratch confused


    Last edited by FORDBOYpete on Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling Error -25 pts on the composition!)
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    havi

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    Re: Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

    Post  havi on Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:27 pm

    the 3.8L in my '88 Tbird blew a head gasket. I took the zero, pulled various parts and hauled it to the JY. I absolutely did not want to waste my time and effort on such a thing, lol. FWIW, the 4.0 is much better than the 2.9.
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    55f350

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    Re: Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

    Post  55f350 on Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:37 am

    3.8's are boat anchors at best . the bird forum i'm ocassionally wander over to to educmacate myself on the 4.6 has yet to say anything out of the way or bad about the tty head bolts they use other than to those who dont grasp it change them every time you loosen one . maybe it's just a freaky 4.0 issue only ??? personally i'd like to use / find plain old headbolts for the 4.6 { a ways off yet } when i tear into it as the tty's seem kinda pricey to be doing everytime ya look sideways at it . as far as the plastic intakes well .... my 4.6 is an early one with an aluminum intake , but everything in the last two years of production the way i understand it and the much vaunted p.i. intake is plastic and has an aluminum crossover for the coolant , and the alternator bolts to the front of it . guys on there are always complaining about them as they seem to be real prone to breaking / cracking / and leaking . the pi is dyno proven to be worth in the 'hood of 10 horse but it seems that fords plastic intakes are a big pain in the arse . i got a crazy idea , why not stuff a mod motor in it ????? or when the last 3.8 let go in the wifes windstar i was eyeballing a used and abused taurus sho with the v-8 as a possible donor ................. i know i'm warped ................ oh yeah the bird forum guys also say no matter what engine stay away from the dorman replacement intakes as they are crap . not even as good as the oe ones and dont flow as well , thus losing power . a fix for the 3.8 is the sc block and heads . much more meat in the decks and heads , and better tolerances on the finished product from ford i'm told . a freind of mine who has a super coupe he races suggested buying a set of the heads at least to fix her windstar the last time as she was partial to it . wasn't gonna waste the cash there ! could be a fix if your grandaughter's has the two vlave 3.8 seen a rusted out turd of an sc a few days ago for sale for 400 bucks and it ran sweet , just wasn't much car left . could make that stang scoot a lil' quicker !!!!!!!!
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    FORDBOYpete

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    Re: Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

    Post  FORDBOYpete on Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:23 am


    55F350
    I agree about boat anchors, doesn't matter if it's the cut 5.0L version, the newer version, or the latest version with that stupid rotater shaft internally for whatever reason it's there. 9 hole heads on a V6 car is really a dumb idea to my knowledge. The latest version of the 3.8 is a disaster waiting to fail, IMHO. As far as being a boat anchor, I'm afraid FLa Game & Fish commission, or Dept of Env' Reg' would cite me if I put one in the water as an anchor, ya know?

    That Mustang is long gone and good ridance to it. We warned her that we would NOT do it again, and if she wanted to get another vehicle the day I handed her back her key was the day to do it. She was told DO NOT DIRVE YOUR Mustang anywhere but to the dealer you buy your next car at. Take what ever he offers you and let me or your Dad check what you are wanting to get, before you make your deal.

    She did all that and managed to get a sweet car for her. It's a '06 Civic and it is one of those proverbial, pristine, "Ol Lady" rides. It had 45K milles, is really clean & was trade from local elderly lady who bought it at dealer my granddaughter found it at. All work has aways been done there.

    She spent a TAD High for it, but it was well worth the premiun price. It has been flawless and virtually cost free beyond normal expenses of fuel & oil changes. She had it for 15 months now. She's put a good set of Michelins on & it rides out great.

    I don't care about Civics, whether they are cars or college courses, Hah ha ha.Laughing
    But it's a great car for her and runs as sweet as it looks & is.

    CIAO Y'all



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    55f350

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    Location : a corn field in illinois

    Re: Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

    Post  55f350 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:43 am

    uhhhhhhgghhhhhhhhhh honda's !!!!!!!!!!!!! don't care for furrin' cars from the orient much . dependable i know just got issues with 'em . i found a ford taurus here looking around , one owner , not to long ago , that belonged to a postal employee on another mail route . it was a black fully loaded including sunroof , sho with a v=8 , { i know yamaha designed but i overlook it in this case !} . she was selling it for 5,000 only had 21,000 miles . had to get rid of it as another baby meant mini van and they couldn't keep it the white twin to it his dually and the mini . better than a honda to me . soninlaw has one that was dependable but it's got some miles on it now , it's a 00 and that thing is rusting out , and having all sorts of mechanical maladies { electrical gremlins too ! } . told him to sell it or bury it . wouldn't listen now he's got a rusty accord yard ornament ....................... he also thought it was " fast " as he bought a tuner for it and plugged it in . my wife smoked his arse in her uplander ....................... i couldn't stop laughing . then again he thinks his gmc 4x4 is king of the hill too .... poor kid suffers from all sorts of deranged delusions ......... my oldest bought a new girly car last year , a nissan altima . believe it or not it started rusting underneath where they had missed undercoating it and painting it at the factory !!!!!!!!!!!!! only had like 15,000 miles on it this year and grew tired of it and the lack of power { v-6 } , and it's inability to get her off the country lane to route 29 , less than a mile , in snow and ice , so they traded it in on a tahoe . her hubby and i tried to get her to buy a ford but .............. live and learn .........
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    Darkside Dave
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    Oh what the hell ???

    Post  Darkside Dave on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:06 am


    Hi Folks,

    I thought I might as well chime in on this gabfest if you guys don't mind... Hondas... Hmmm... People keep telling me they are great cars and maybe they are??? I just don't want one. Actually they are made right here in Ohio and are more American made than some "American" cars. My problem is that they and the other rice grinder brands that have set up shop here are sucking the profits back to the Asian rim. I gotta admit that they also make great small engines and other stuff. Maybe it's being the only child of a WWII veteran of the Pacific theatre... I don't know...

    Kevin,

    The SHO that Yamaha had its hands in was way back in '89 I believe. The V8 SHO was later and I believe Yamaha had nothing to do with it. What year model are you talking about??? A friend of mine has a black one with the V8 SHO set up. Last I knew it was for sale. His stepson did some serious jail time after running away from the cops in it. They couldn't catch him but they had the plate number and just went to his house later and arrested him for several felony counts. the car is fine as far as I know. Just another typical dumbass kid... I don't know what family that V8 engine is from.

    The Previous generation of Taurus's, (not the current renamed 500), were for my money one of the best and toughest cars built. We have an '05 that I drive and the wife has an '06. they are comfortable good riding cars that get decent mileage and I think they were the best looking of the Taurus line up to that point. Both of ours have the plain vinilla 3.0 V6 which I really like. It's simple and easy to work on with exception of the rear bank of spark plugs. I can even change the oil filter standing in front of the car. That little V8 has not embarrassed me for lack of performance.






    The state of Ohio bought hundreds of Taurus's and they sell them off at auctions when they get a lot of miles on them. A lot of people have bought them and gotten another 100K or more out of them with no real problems. We are here in the salt drenched rust belt and the Taurus's hold up a lot better than the Toyotas and the other rice grinders do. The other day my insurance man told me that Toyota had to buy back a lot of vehicles due to serious rust problems. I sort of wonder if they are using a lot of that crappy Chinese steel.

    Pete,

    What is the latest 3.8 version? I am hoping it's not the SHO Ecoboost engine. Pleasse tell me it's not. I don't have one and I probably never will but I was really impressed with it.

    I do have a '97 Aerostar with the electronic all wheel drive that I want to harvest the drive train from for my "Chick Friendly" version '53 F-100 I want to build. It has the 4.0 as far as I know. Other than the inherent 5 speed automatic tranny problems I believe it will be a nice little ride. I have studied the problems and history involved with the tranny and I have learned that there are after market parts and mods available to cure all of it's shortcomings. So far as I know the 4.0 has no real problems.

    I'm now involved in a massive shop and yard re-organization and clean up operation which I should finish by the end of this week. Hopefully I will have created a lot more space and gotten rid of a lot useless crap that I tend to collect like a magnet. I will be invoking my one year rule. Essentially that rule saya that if I haven't used something by the end of a year and it has no clear planned application for any ongoing project, I need to get rid of it by sale, gift or disposal. In the past clean up operations I have filled trucks with that rule. It is once again time to enforce the rule.

    My major clean up operation has incited a violent war between me and thousands of hornets that have taken residence inside my old blue '53 F-100 awaiting it's turn to go in the shop. To count I have been stung at least 10 times but I believe last night was the final battle. I waited until 10:00 PM when it was cool and dark and went out to the truck where I sprayed another whole can of that high powered wasp and hornet killer in and under the seat of that truck. After that I managed to get the seat pulled out and threw it down it the back yard along with some hideous shag carpet some idiot tried to put in that truck. I used a razor box knive to slash open what was left of the upholstery and I found the largest concentration of nests I have ever seen. The seat is junk so there is no loss there. This morning I went out to look around and I noticed there are still a few straglers hanging around greatly confused with no place to go. In a day or two I expect they will either die or be gone. Actually I don't know what these things really are because they are smaller than what I know as a hornet. Maybe they are some kind of yellow jackets. Whatever the little bastards are they sure can sting.

    I have pretty much wrapped up the Scoobygator project and I even took it to a car show. You can see it in the Off Road Vehicles category. Now I can get started on the two '53 F-100's I thought I would never get there. Now all I have to do is live long enough to get them done.


    OK Folks, that's all I have for now.

    Later Folks...


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    55f350

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    Re: Anyone have an opinion or Input on TTY Bolts?

    Post  55f350 on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:27 am

    dave i cant remember the year of it , i think it was the more rounded body . i'd have to look up deanna , she and her hubby live in mt. pulaski here abouts and get the info again if they still have it . i thought it was a deal . dont like front drive but those lil' buggers with the v-8 seemed to run real good , and a v-6 sho gave my old mustang gt vert a run for it's money on one occasion , and the gt had the gt 40 engine goodies from the dealer and the 'putor had been reprogrammed . not that it was a rocket as my 70 bird kicked sand in it's face all the time much to the wifes chagrin , but you wouldn't have expected a wrong wheel drive 6 to scare it . as far as tough and good i will give the old taurus's that . if you took care of them they were dependable , got decent mileage { i got 30-31 regularly in an old co. car } and were somewhat comfy .as far as squads catching anything , well .... in my youth i used to love smoking the laws behinds and leave 'em sitting . as i once told my father in law and a couple of neighbors , not bragging about my ability's either , but even with the training they get they can't drive their way out of a wet paper bag . i ran from 'em in a 70 pinto with a 2000 4 popper and lost 'em !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the new squads , even with having one don't run as well as they'd like to believe , i think it's all big brother bull , run and we'll catch you with our faster than your's cars , etc. so a v-8 taurus leaving 'em sitting yep i'd belive it for that reason alone . they were / are quick for what they are ! i really wanted deanna's as it is a cream puff , but with the 53 and all the other oddball things i keep getting into well ...................

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