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DARKSIDER In the world of automotive hobbyists a Darksider is one who modifies and or customizes any and all sorts of vehicles. The Darksiders are in a class of their own simply because they endeavor to be different and do things that others would not attempt for a number of reasons mostly being related to a lack of ability and fear of non conformity.

This is a forum for people who think outside the box in everything they do. It doesn’t matter if you are modifying or building from scratch. It doesn’t matter what brand or brands of vehicles or components you are using. It doesn’t matter if you are working on a mini car or a bus.

We will not be asking you for donations or any kind of monetary payments. We will be asking for help in terms moderators and encouraging you to spread the word and add to our membership.

Darksider's Realm

A message board & forum for automotive builders, fabricators and customizers who think outside the box.


    Cash For Clunkers...

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    Darkside Dave
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    Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:34 am


    Hi Folks,

    In the words of Sony and Cher, “The Beat Goes On…” For some time now I have heard and read the rants of people who are upset about the Cash for Clunkers program. I am beginning to get a little tired of the constant whining. I’m about to the point of just saying it is what it is so deal with it. Most of the complaining I hear is from people who have never and will never do anything about issues that affect the public as a whole.

    First and just for the record, I’ll make my position on this clear. I don’t agree with all the aspects of the program. I do think it has good points as well as bad points. However, I have learned that a lot of people who are complaining don’t really know a lot about the program. From what I am hearing and reading, most people simply think they are totally crushing and ruining the vehicles. The major complaint here is that valuable parts are simply being wasted. In some cases this is true and I tend to agree that destroying the engine and simply crushing it just for the sake of the program is wrong. As a matter of fact, it isn’t even environmentally correct. The real problem here is that there is and probably will be no effort made on the part of legislators or the public in general to fix the program.

    Originally the whole point of the program was to get gas guzzlers off the road and to stimulate the American auto industry. Unfortunately, as in the case of most things the government gets their hands into, they managed to stray far from the original point and intention. If this program is to continue, it could be fixed. First there is no sane reason for having hundreds of pages of detailed regulatory crap. This could be a simple program.

    Most states if not all of them have something similar to the Junk title category we have here in Ohio. That idea could have been played upon in this program by creating a federal Clunker Trade database or even simpler, make it a category in the nationwide database of VIN’s that already exists for use by law enforcement. When a dealer takes in a clunker they could simply enter the vehicle’s VIN into the online database they already have access to as implemented by the current program. To satisfy the requirements of the individual states the titles could be rendered automatically as junk or clunker titles by the same process. At this point only licensed auto wrecking and scrap businesses could purchase the vehicles from a federal database bidding list. There is no need to go through the wanton destruction of ruining the engine if this process is handled as I have just suggested.

    There is a widespread popular opinion that all Clunker Vehicles have to be crushed. This IS NOT TRUE… Many of them are already going to places like Pull-A-Part , where they are being sold off as individual parts. When Pull-A-Part decides that they have sold off most of all the individual parts they crush the remains for scrap. This is a good thing for those of us that like to go the junkyards and harvest usable parts. I have noticed that most of the vehicles in Pull-A-Part yards have the hoods propped open and there are almost always parts removed from the engine that allow the rain and contaminates to get into the engine. That means that the engine is pretty well ruined anyway and is only good for taking parts off of. Even though the Clunker Program requires the engine be ruined by running an abrasive slurry through the engine, there are still a fair amount of usable parts to be harvested. As I previously stated, I don’t agree with this process, but it’s not the big deal people are making of it.

    Let’s do the math… as of now, a total of three-billion dollars have been allotted to this program. Let’s put this in perspective. Three-billion will buy one and one half B2 bombers or a down payment on an aircraft carrier. The clunker payment amounts to $3,500 to $4,500 per vehicle. That works out to an average of $4,000.00 per vehicle. That means that if all the money that has so far been allotted is used there will be approximately 750,000 Clunker trade-ins. Here in the US we are currently averaging 251 million, (that’s 251,000,000) registered cars and small trucks. For the US domestic auto manufacturing industry to survive they need to make about 14 million vehicles a year. There are literally Hundreds of Thousands of junkyards in the United States and they all will be wanting their piece of the pie so far as these Clunkers are concerned. I am pretty sure it won’t be long before these vehicles start showing up in the yards and they will probably be a pretty good source of parts for those of us that like getting out there and looking for that sort of stuff. When you do the math, it soon becomes evident that there will be little or no negative impact on the status quo due to this program.

    On a positive note… I hear people complaining about it being another expensive government spending program. This is just another one the whiners have targeted. I find it strange that they have no problem with pouring vast amounts of money every month into places like Iraq as well as countless other places that we will NEVER see any return from. WAKE UP FOLKS!!! This is one of the very few programs that we the people and the nation get something back for our money.

    I guess you could say that this in my rant, and if you did you would be right. I just get sick and tired of people going off half cocked and spouting a lot of misinformed opinions. I think it is a good idea for people to discuss these kinds of issues, but it usually does more harm than good when they don’t bother to do any investigative research and just go by what they have heard from some biased source that probably is not accurate.

    If people are truly concerned about these issues they need to get off their duffs and start being a part of the solution. It is now easier than ever to contact the legislative representatives in Congress and make you desires known. I can sit down at the computer and go online to virtually notify every member of the House and the Senate and any of thousands of issues they deal with. Just about everybody has online access these days. One thing is for sure, if you don’t make your points known to them, they aren’t going to consider them. Believe it or not, you can even call the White House and they have staffers that will discuss any reasonable issue with you. The same goes for any Congressmen or Senator’s office.

    OK, I've said my piece on this. Now, as usual I invite any of all of you to contribute. I only ask that you be reasonable and informed. Biased opinions based mainly on feelings without substantial facts to back them up will not keep this discussion on an intelligent level. I am sure that there are more factors involved that could be covered here.

    Here is a link to a PDF file entailing the "Clunkers Bill": http://www.cashforclunkersfacts.com/cash-for-clunkers-final-rule.pdf This thing is 136 pages long, so be prepaired to spend some time reading it as it IS NOT a fast read.


    Later Folks...


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    55f350

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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  55f350 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:51 am

    thanx for the link , and i for one have contacted my " elected " officials on all levels about this and the cap and pass i believe it's called , bills . so far all i've gotten is the usual bend over and pick up the soap in the shower political rhetoric myself . sema sends me stuff good and bad via email and as time permits i do what i can .
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    FORDBOYpete

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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  FORDBOYpete on Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:58 pm

    I am inclined to agree with you Dave. It has no effect on me because I'm not buying any new vehicles anytime soon.
    I am certailny not driving Gas Guzzlers or Clunkers either.

    Well maybe my 460 might be a "gas Guzzler" to some uninformed personnel but as I see it, if I can get thru a 1320
    on a 12.60 index then 17 Mpg doesn't seem so bad to me. No I don't get 17 Mpg in a 1/4, I get 17mpg as an overall Avg.

    It's a F-100 body on an F-150 SWB Chassis, so 17 isn't shabby to my thinking. The T-Bird & Aero Truck both get better than
    20mpg OA/Avg. Unless I hammer a lot. If I have to give up a few mpg to have some class & distinction, so be it, I say. It's better
    than riding in a "looks-a-like" that's too tiny to be comfortable, safe & fast in.
    Nothing I own or drive is real suceptable to X-winds.
    Altho my Aero was a lot worse when it was riding on OEM suspension components et al. ( Hah)



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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:26 pm



    Well, it's almost a history lesson now. It will be by tomorrow morning anyway. I understand that the Ford Explorer was the #1 clunker trade in. I expect places like Pull-A-Part will get their fair share of this stuff. According the the 136 pages of the law I read, they have 6 months to crush the car and they can strip it or sell parts from it. In a few weeks I'll hit the yards and find out what is out there. I need some Explorer parts anyway.

    Later Folks...


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    havi

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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  havi on Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:39 pm

    Grab all the 8.8's while we can.
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:35 am

    havi wrote:Grab all the 8.8's while we can.


    That's not a bad idea... Pull-A-Part is currently asking 122 bucks for the complete rear axel less springs and wheels. For an extra 18 bucks you can get a warranty. I would consider harvesting some of them for reselling if I had storage room and they weren't so expensive to ship. I am also thinking of getting some of those front wheel bearing assenblies for the 4WD Rangers and Explorers. That brings a question to mind... I have done a limited bit of research and I have found that manual hub conversions are available for the Rangers circa '99 but not the Explorers circa '99. This confuises me somewhat because when you look at them they are pretty much the same. I have let to tear into the front hubs on the '99 Explorer rolling chassis I want to use for my '53 F-100 but a simple look-see tells me they are pretty much the same thing. Have you had any experience with these things?

    Later Man...


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    havi

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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  havi on Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:26 pm

    Just the hubs on the 91-94's, sorry. A part number cross reference might help.
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:33 am

    havi wrote:Just the hubs on the 91-94's, sorry. A part number cross reference might help.

    That is something I don't have, nor do I have a clue where to start looking...


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    havi

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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  havi on Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:31 pm

    1990-94 Explorer and 1990-1997 Ranger use the same conversion kit.
    However for newer style that are non serviceable and vacuum actuated, here's a couple articles to look over: http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/spring07/98_00_Ranger_hub_bearing.htm
    http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/AVM_hub_swap.htm (note it is a Ranger site, not an Explorer site, so I'm not positive the hubs are the same)
    http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/Apr04/offroad.htm

    Overall, it would be easier to find the info by figuring out what the front axle is....IE Dana 35 IFS as opposed to 1997 Explorer hub. Good luck.
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Cash For Clunkers...

    Post  Darkside Dave on Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:57 pm

    havi wrote:1990-94 Explorer and 1990-1997 Ranger use the same conversion kit.
    However for newer style that are non serviceable and vacuum actuated, here's a couple articles to look over: http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/spring07/98_00_Ranger_hub_bearing.htm
    http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/AVM_hub_swap.htm (note it is a Ranger site, not an Explorer site, so I'm not positive the hubs are the same)
    http://www.therangerstation.com/Magazine/Apr04/offroad.htm

    Overall, it would be easier to find the info by figuring out what the front axle is....IE Dana 35 IFS as opposed to 1997 Explorer hub. Good luck.


    I will be looking into the links you provided. I am going to take a look at the stuff in the yards when I go to our nearest Pull-A-Part that just opened. They seem to have quite an inventory of Rangers and Explorers. I have a 'nice '95 Explorer and it is a bit different than the '99 I have the rolling chassis from. The '95 has some kind of actuator on the front differential and the '99 doesn't. Otherwise they seem to be identical. I just did a front wheel bearing assembly change out for a neighbor and everything in his '99 Ranger looked like the stuff in the '99 Explorer chassis. I'm almost certain there are some differences but they may not matter. Maybe if I get some old parts from the yard and do some experimental swapping I will learn what I can get by with. It wouldn't be the first time I've learned how to do what they say can't be done.

    Later Man...


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    sinndustrial

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    on one last note about the issue

    Post  sinndustrial on Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:24 pm

    im not so much just a whiner, i take no offense to the comment, BUT i do take part in action for the things i believe in, when i have an idea what to do. i was active in the campaign to get rid of the red light traffic cameras in Heath,OH. and they went on the ballot, and last night the issue was voted on and we won. we had 3 websites devoted to getting the cameras taken down, contacted several city officials, and even got some of the ticket money refunded to those who were proven to be wrongfully ticketed by the cameras. so , yes , maybe some people are inactive in their local government, but then , some of us are just getting started. now also i will say this, if you have any information that can help me in my journey, please do pass it on. i would gladly accept the challenge. i also admit that im still just a pup, but at 26 i am just starting to figure out how this thing we call a world works. i am also just starting to figure out how to be active in speaking up for those who share my beliefs. i was outraged about the CFC program , due to misinformation. i have recently started reviewing your link and will dedicate as much time as i can to learning it in its entirety, or at least the important parts. i also am just starting to find out about some of the laws in the other states regarding automobiles. i had a car with hydraulics when i was 20 and got multiple tickets for hitting switches while moving. i was outraged then , but now i understand why it is an issue that deserves ticketing. it is just not safe to bounce your car when your going down a public street. so , in closing, as i gather information ( good working,real information ) and form opinions, i will become a more active member in society.

    i look to the older, more knowledgeable crowd for guidance, and when i do, dont banish me. direct me.

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