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Darksider's Realm

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    Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

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    deyomatic

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    Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  deyomatic on Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:11 pm

    I'm about to yank the tired old Y block/Fordomatic out of my '60 F100 and in its place will be a 350/700R4...since this is the Darkside, how do I wire up the starter and the alternator, which I believe is a 3 wire type. I guess I'm also going to need 20 amps going to my 700R4's lockup switch, too. Any idea where to pull that from? The truck is bone stock right now.

    Thanks.
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Darkside Dave on Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:29 am

    deyomatic wrote:I'm about to yank the tired old Y block/Fordomatic out of my '60 F100 and in its place will be a 350/700R4...since this is the Darkside, how do I wire up the starter and the alternator, which I believe is a 3 wire type. I guess I'm also going to need 20 amps going to my 700R4's lockup switch, too. Any idea where to pull that from? The truck is bone stock right now.

    Thanks.

    First the Alternator... I'm assuming here that the alternator you are mentioning is a GM type as the old Y-block probably had a generator. If that is the case your alternator must be from an older GM model because they have used the the so called one wire model for years. However, some of those did have a terminal for an idiot lite and a ground terminal. If so you don't need to worry about the the idiot lite terminal. If this alternator is the internal self regulated so-called one wire type it simply needs only to be hooked up to the positive battery terminal. The Alternator will get it's ground path through the case and mounting. Some of them had a ground terminal. If it does have one it will be a stud that is protruding from the back of the case and is not an insulated terminal stud. In other words it will be at the same electrical potential as the case of the alternator. You can test this by waiting until you get the engine installed and get it started. If it will charge with the main terminal hooked to the battery you are good to go. You can test this with a temporary wire from the alternator to the positive battery terminal. If you don't have a meter you can get a cheap digital multiimeter at Harbor Freight for a few bucks. If the alternator is charging it should raise the battery voltage by a few volts when hooked up.

    OK, now I am also going to assume that you are planning on using as much of the stock wiring in the truck as you can. If so, you should be able to hook the output wire of the generator to the output terminal of the new alternator and everything including your ammeter should work. Of course this assumes that your truck has an ammeter instead of an idiot lite. If it has the light I would seriously consider using a guage set. Another point is that your truck wiring was probably not rated for more than a 30 amp generator. the alternator you have is probably at least a 50 amp or larger capacity depending on what it was on. There is a potential here for an electrical fire because the smaller conductors used for the old system will not handle the increased current output of the alternator. If it were me I would rewire accordingly with no less than a 10 Ga. wire.

    as for the 20 amp TC lock-up circuit, it needs to supply power any time the engine is running. Since the old truck wiring system is not meant to handle loads like this I suggest using a continueous duty relay triggered by the ignition system circuit. I would use the relay to switch on power directly from the battery to the tranny and just for safety I would put a 20 amp fuse in line with it.

    As for the starter, it will be different. GM starters have a terminal on the starter mounted solenoid relay that comes from the start terminal on the ignition switch. On your Ford truck this wire probably went to a solenoid relay mounted on one of the inner fenders which switched the power from the battery to the starter. You will need to move the fender mounted hook-up to the GM starter mounted solenoid relay. this will require s longer battery cable and extending the wiring to reach the other two terminals. One is the start wire and the other is the ignition resistor bypass wire. It may not be present if you have some later model electronic ignition. I would have to see the circuit diagrams for the particular model you harvested the drive tran from to know for sure. I'm afraid you are going to discover there is a lot more to doing this right than just swaping drive trains and hooking up a few wires. I would strongly advise some careful study and research by comparing schematics of your truck to that of the donor vehicle. Personally, if I were doing this I would just rewire the whole truck to meet modern standards because innevitably things get added and it quickly gets to be a real mess.

    Go to www.delcity.net . They are a reliable and reasonable source of automotive electrical parts. they are also fast with the delivery. If you like you can request they send you a free catalog. Be sure to specify you want the catalog with the price list in it because they have them both ways. There you can find switches, relays, guages, wire, terminals and fuse blocks.

    Here is a link to the relay you need. http://www.delcity.net/store/search/p_791795.h_791800.a_1.t_1.n_y

    Here is a link to the plug-in bas for that relay http://www.delcity.net/store/search/p_790144.h_790150.a_1.t_1.n_y

    Here is a link to a typical fuse block http://www.delcity.net/store/search/p_10880.h_24963.a_1.t_1.n_y

    You can click on the above links to see the website catalog pages.



    This should be enough to get you started. WARNING !!! The old electrical systems were not designed to handle the load of more modern systems and accessories. One of the major causes of fires and electrical system failures is trying to load these old systems down with the new stuff. Another problem is that 40 year old wiring insulation gets brittle and cracks open which leads to shorts and burn outs.

    OK, I hope this helps more that discourages you. I would rather discourage you than have you end up with a crispy critter for a truck.

    Later Man...


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    alanco

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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  alanco on Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:58 pm

    deyomatic wrote:I'm about to yank the tired old Y block/Fordomatic out of my '60 F100 and in its place will be a 350/700R4...since this is the Darkside, how do I wire up the starter and the alternator, which I believe is a 3 wire type. I guess I'm also going to need 20 amps going to my 700R4's lockup switch, too. Any idea where to pull that from? The truck is bone stock right now.

    Thanks.

    It is a lot easier than Dave made it. If you have a 350 it will have a one wire alternator. All you have to do is to remove the old generator regulator, (take off the Positive Battery Terminal first) The big yellow wire is the one that went to the generator Armature terminal. Hook this to the alternator wire. Now splice this wire to the Batt Terminal that went to the regulator. The second wire that went to the generator, the F(field) wire, you hook to the #2 terminal on the alternator marked I. This is for the idiot light. Put a 1/4" push on lead on the F wire, put it on the #2 terminal. The regulator end of the F wire you splice to the I (idiot light) lead of the regulator that was also on the Armature lead of the regulator, this is a small (#18) wire. Splice the old F wire that is coming from the alternator to this lead. The Ford Generator wiring is adequate for the alternator, as it is #10 wire already.

    For the GM starter:

    Take the starter lead and run it to the Ford Starter Solenoid. Since the starter is on the passenger side and so is the Ford starter solenoid, you do not need to move anything. Make a jumper wire that goes from the Starter cable lead to the S lead on the GM starter solenoid. This pulls in the solenoid when your Ford starter solenoid "hots up" the lead to the GM starter. That is all that needs to be done. Your Ford starter solenoid is still hooked up the same way it was. There is a terminal on the GM starter that is marked I. You won't use it.

    For the GM Distributor. You should have an HEI ignition to hook up. It is stupidly simple, as it only needs a 12V lead. However you will probably have to wire a new #14 Wire lead to it from your ignition switch because your existing Ford coil (which you won't use) has a resistor built in to the wire and this will not power the HEI. You also do not need the second wire going to the coil that comes from your Ford starter solenoid I terminal. You can cut these two wires off. If you have a tach to hook up, there is a lead on the HEI for that. Use Ford sensors taken from the old y block for temp, and oil. That is all you have to do. You do not need a wiring diagram for this.

    As far as the lead that goes to a switch on your carburetor that will operate the lockup torque converter, that will just come from the same place that your HEI ignition lead somes from, your ignition switch. It would be easiest to tie the lead to the HEI terminal, install an inline 10A fuse to it, and run it to the kickdown sw on the carburetor and then wire that to the 700R4. All this wire is for is to unlock the torque converter clutch when you open the throttle wide open. You can buy these switches at Kragen or other speed shops.

    Regards,

    Alan
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Darkside Dave on Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:30 am

    Alan,
    Sorry for all the confusion. I was taking into account some possible variables. Apparently you are assuming that he has an engine and tranny all taken from the same vehicle in it's original stock configuration as I noticed you also assumed he had the HEI ignition. Athough I made it more confusing, I was trying to cover other possibilities. I've seen a lot of strange stuff thrown together and sometimes it comes from vehicles that have already been messed with. That includes people using older stlye GM starters on newer engines with ign. systems that do not require the ign. bypass resistor terminal. There is also the issue of having a resistor or a resistor wire link that he may or may not need depending on the actual ignition system he has. Most people don't know if there is a resistance wire link used because it just looks like the rest of the wiring and if it is old the label marjer is either covered up or long since gone. There could also be the possibility that the alternator is not original equipment or he doesn't have one yet. And BTW, if you check the NEC code books or any electrician's hand book, 10 GA. wire is rated at 30 amps. Most alternators now are rated at a way higher output and few if any are below 50 amps. 50 year old wire with brittle and generally inferior insulation is not a good idea to use in this case. Yeah I know... People use it and get by with it. There are also as many or more who don't.

    Personally I prefer to do the electrical stuff right as it is the number one cause of vehicle fires. However, I realize that there are a lot of people who don't or won't upgrade the wiring and try to get by with whatever will work. To each his own on that one. I just don't want to be the guy that says to do it that way and then hear about it later in the form of a sad story about a fire. Automotive electrical systems are engineered as cheaply and as close to the edge of material specs as they can get them in order to save money in production costs. When you go messing with them and ad load or output capacity you are asking for trouble. It really doesn't cost all that much to be safe as opposed to sorry.


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    alanco

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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  alanco on Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:10 am

    Dave:

    The plastic wire in Ford trucks of his vintage is very good and if not abused, will be fine for reuse. The NEC codebook rates wire by how it is used and rating #10 for only 30 amps is for wire in conduit with 60% fill at 70C, or BX or Romex. Now if you looked in a table that shows #10 insulated wire in free air at 70C, it will show 50A. Bare #10 in free air is 70A. The usual GM alternator is 45A and that is only for a short time, right after startup, Almost never is a continuous charge of over 20A seen. So #10 is perfectly adequate for this use. If I had some house wire I would use THHN #10. I think this fellow can look at the wire or wires and replace any that need replacing on his own. As far as electrical fires, I do not agree with you. The battery to generator regulator wire has a fusible link built in to the wire just below the starter solenoid which is where it joins the battery lead. If I were using a larger alternator than the standard GM alternator, I would replace this fusible link. However, no fire will start in this alternator/battery link as you have insulated wire and a fusible link to protect the circuit. The idiot light circuit is protected already, but only enough current will flow through the lamp to light it so it is not capable to ignite anything. So it does not follow that this simple wiring will be capable of flames in any way. We are trying to help young fellows do their work without making it ridiculously hard. When I started working on cars at 13, I was very affected by a mechanic who chastised me for trying to change a clutch. I did it anyway, but after having done it I lorded it all over that mechanic. But his comments threw me at first......

    As far as HEI ignitions, they have been used since 1974. It is hard to find many 350s which only started in 1967 as a special order and Novas in 1968 as the full line got them in 1969, so HEIs were not on only 5 years of production of 350s and not bloody likely to be on the average 350 IMHO. And if one isn't on the engine, I would go to a wrecking yard and find one, and use the old single point distributor as an oiling tool, by grinding all the teeth off the distributor gear, removing the breaker plate, advance weights and exposing the distributor shaft so it can be chucked in a 1/2" or heavy 3/8" reversing drill. OK?

    Now if this fellow has bad wiring in the engine compartment now, he can easily replace the wires from the firewall grommet forward one at a time without a big problem. If he were building a show truck or tearing the entire truck apart, then he can rewire it, but for a truck that is running just fine and doing a very simple engine conversion, no, I would not rewire it. No engine computer is going in, no huge changes, and the OEM Ford wiring is done quite well IMHO. I am giving him specific instructions which are easy to do and understandable. They are the way I would do it if he came to me with the order to do the work.

    Alan
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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Darkside Dave on Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:38 am

    Hi Alan,

    Now this is starting to get laughable... I can just see the poor guy saying to himself, "All I wanted to do was swap my engine and tranny..."

    By and large the points you have made are correct. However, as a 40 year retired electriciam and holder of a Master Electrician's license I have learned that there is much more to interpreting the NEC than first meets the eye. If you want to spend the money for it they print a version that cites all the exceptions with footnotes and references to something that may well be in some other obscure place in the book. Allow me to insert a few points here and there in the text of your message.




    alanco wrote:Dave:

    The plastic wire in Ford trucks of his vintage is very good and if not abused, will be fine for reuse.

    I'm not sure what the exact type the insulation is that is used in the vehicles. I suspect that different manufactures have their own specifications for the material. I do know that it is inferior to THHN and MTW. Also the type of insulation does govern the allowed ampacity of the conductor it insulates. I would like to point out that I currently have a 1983 F-150 sitting out back that I bought as a donor vehicle. It was in service until I bought it. By all appearances it endured a normal existance through out it's time in service being subjected to what I would classify as nornal use and exposure. I can tell you the insulation on the under the hood wiring is brittle and cracks easily. this truck is more than 20 years newer than the truck discussed above.


    The NEC codebook rates wire by how it is used and rating #10 for only 30 amps is for wire in conduit with 60% fill at 70C, or BX or Romex.


    Conductors in sheathed cables or assembled bundles are subject to derating for ampacity as are conductors in conduit and in some cases by greater degrees.


    Now if you looked in a table that shows #10 insulated wire in free air at 70C, it will show 50A. Bare #10 in free air is 70A.


    Conductors in free air refers to conductors strung or supported in open areas with adequate space between them for air to circulate around the conductors. This allowance was set for open lines mostly in outdoor applications on utility poles. It is not applicable to bundled wiring under the hood of a vehicle with a hot engine. This alone will greatly reduce the rated ampacity.


    The usual GM alternator is 45A and that is only for a short time, right after startup, Almost never is a continuous charge of over 20A seen. So #10 is perfectly adequate for this use. If I had some house wire I would use THHN #10. I think this fellow can look at the wire or wires and replace any that need replacing on his own. As far as electrical fires, I do not agree with you. The battery to generator regulator wire has a fusible link built in to the wire just below the starter solenoid which is where it joins the battery lead.


    In a perfect world I would agree with you... Let me know when you find one, LOL... The problem here is that I seldom if ever see people doing this kind of work on vehicles in such pristine condition. After years of use and in most cases neglect, there are usually all sorts of substitutions and modifications that have been done. I have seen more than a few where the fusable links have been eliminated because someone shorted them out at some point. In the sort of hobby we are engaged in here I don't think it is realistic to assume all will be as originally built. I have had vehicles brought to me where an electrical fire stared because a conductor was allowed to rub the insulation off across some metal that was at ground potential due to common mechanical vibration. I have had two neighbors at different times and places loose a whole garage and several vehicles due to fires that started while they were just sitting in the garage. In one case there was no electric service to the garage. These were well kept nice vehicles.

    I have noticed that when people start changing things they sooner or later get into adding those monster sound systems that are current hogs by nature. Some will not even work with a standard alternator and wiring. I had one case of a guy who put a big system in a mid '80s Mustang and the thing would actually shut down the ignition system if you really cranked it. Therefore I have to assume the worst case is always possible on the Darkside.



    If I were using a larger alternator than the standard GM alternator, I would replace this fusible link. However, no fire will start in this alternator/battery link as you have insulated wire and a fusible link to protect the circuit. The idiot light circuit is protected already, but only enough current will flow through the lamp to light it so it is not capable to ignite anything. So it does not follow that this simple wiring will be capable of flames in any way. We are trying to help young fellows do their work without making it ridiculously hard. When I started working on cars at 13, I was very affected by a mechanic who chastised me for trying to change a clutch. I did it anyway, but after having done it I lorded it all over that mechanic. But his comments threw me at first......


    Now if this fellow has bad wiring in the engine compartment now, he can easily replace the wires from the firewall grommet forward one at a time without a big problem.


    Dried out and heat cracked firewall grommets are a major cause for vehicle electrical fires. That is one reason they don't use them much any more. Once it goes the wiring is exposed to a rough metal edge.



    If he were building a show truck or tearing the entire truck apart, then he can rewire it, but for a truck that is running just fine and doing a very simple engine conversion, no, I would not rewire it. No engine computer is going in, no huge changes, and the OEM Ford wiring is done quite well IMHO. I am giving him specific instructions which are easy to do and understandable. They are the way I would do it if he came to me with the order to do the work.



    Just for kicks, here ia a little experiment you should try sometime. If you have a way to do this get a three foot piece of 10 Ga. wire and apply a constant 30 amp load to it strung in free air. I think you will be surprised at the amount of heat generated by the conductor in a relatively short period of time.

    I actually take no issue with the advice you have given but I do think you tend to assume too much. Maybe his situation is as you seem to see it and all is OK with the condition of of his electrical system. I just find that hard to believe in a 50 year old truck. I have been serverd well over the years by assuming the worst possible case and that especially goes for a situation where there is no way I can know exactly what the conditions are. That said, I freely admit to going overboard in most cases. I make no apology for that but I will agressively defend it as solid investment in prevention.

    One thing is for certain, if he reads this thread thoroughly he will at least be exposed to some possibilities and options he may not have been aware of. This is one major reason why I came up with the Darksider's Realm. I happen to think it is far better to spend time on issues like this as opposed to brand loyalty and the sins of cross breeding brands. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be here if we didn't agree on that point.

    OK, I think we have pretty much beaten this dead horse to a pulp. Time to move on... I need to get to the shop and try to get the current project out the door to make room for the next big project. At age 64 I need to get in gear or I won't last long enough to get all the stuff done.

    Later Man...



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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:01 pm

    Darkside Dave wrote:[b

    However, as a 40 year retired electriciam and holder of a Master Electrician's license....

    [/b][/size]
    [/quote]

    40 years???!!!
    You must be OLD!

    haha

    kinda old myself
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Darkside Dave on Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:20 pm

    bgarrett wrote:
    Darkside Dave wrote:[b

    However, as a 40 year retired electriciam and holder of a Master Electrician's license....

    [/b][/size]

    40 years???!!!
    You must be OLD!

    haha

    kinda old myself[/quote]

    Yep, I'm sliding down for the final countdown. I'm so old I fart dust... 64 Man...


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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Guest on Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:44 pm

    I'm 59, right behind you

    Seems like it went by awful quick
    I still have things I wanna do before I die
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    Darkside Dave
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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Darkside Dave on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:21 am

    bgarrett wrote:I'm 59, right behind you

    Seems like it went by awful quick
    I still have things I wanna do before I die

    Yeah me too but I have started to look at the practical side of things and I am trying to cull out the list a bit. there ain't no way in hell I'll ever get all that stuff done. I really have to wonder if my plans for my two trucks are realistic. However, the bright side of that is that they will probably live on in some way as my son has one also and he would end up with all my tools and equipment as well as my vehicles. It took me most of my life to accumulate it all and he won't have to wait for all that. I guess that sounds a bit morbid but sometimes you just have to be practical.

    Later Man...


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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  havi on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:56 am

    I earnestly believe that after the first is done, and (most) all the tools have been gathered, the second, third, fourth, etc... ones will go a lot faster. But that's just me, and unproven, lol.
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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Darkside Dave on Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:39 am

    havi wrote:I earnestly believe that after the first is done, and (most) all the tools have been gathered, the second, third, fourth, etc... ones will go a lot faster. But that's just me, and unproven, lol.

    I think you are right Scott... But, it's those first initial steps that are the hardest and take the longest. My problem is that I can never limit myself to one particular area of endeavor. I keep getting into other stuff which probably explains why I am into so many things to take up my time. My excuse is that I suffer from SCADS, (Senior Citizen Attention Deficit Syndrome). I always start out with a plan and by the end of the day I am seldom still on that plan. I guess this forum and message board is a good example of that. You would think a guy with limited time left and already too much on his plate would leave well enough alone. But Nooooo... I just can't seem to follow that plan.


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    old age "plans"

    Post  tomget on Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:59 am

    I'm reading what you Dave and others are saying about old age and car building etc. I too have
    more to do than "time to do it in" --@63 and counting. I've come to think its not really necessary
    to finish everything on my plate --though I keep working at stuff and hope to--but to
    have the challenge--active living--. I like to get the stuff done to-but I to think
    people following will pick up where I leave off. I can't control things. Some realtive
    I love will probably destroy my favorite truck--that's the way it goes, but something will
    be saved!! That's how I got some of my current projects. It goes on.
    Tom
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    Re: Ford to Chevy...wiring in the Darkside...Bwuahahahhahha

    Post  Guest on Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:16 am

    Every person who sees my 1939 Ford truck (see other thread for picture) asks me when I am going to "finish" it.

    I have been driving it every day for 16 years, thru 4 states, often towing a trailer with another antique car on the trailer.

    I admit that the truck is ugly but whatthehell does "finish it" mean???

    It was ugly the day it came out of the factory and now it has 70 years of use and it isold and beat up.
    The only 'finish' it will get from me is the 'finish' it gets on the last day I use it.
    It will be 'finished' then!

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